Tuesday, March 25, 2008

Cruel and Unusual Punishment

Sometimes I think that the worst torture one could devise for these freaks would be to lock them in a room all alone for about three days. After about an hour, they would probably have their socks on their hands like puppets, just to have someone to lie to.

Anonymous @ 6:44

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At 9:37 AM, Anonymous holy water salt said...

Well, as one I know said: I don't need women,I have my left-hand.

He forgot to mention a mirror, then he'd be set.

But really, the idiot couldn't stand being alone.

Why is that? Just because they are empty or do they need us a point of refernce toprove they are alive?

I wonder, I like being alone. It is very cathartic for me.

At 9:57 AM, Blogger Kathy said...

I have known two narcissists virtually my whole life. This is very true of them: they cannot stand to be alone. Others say the same, like Joanna Ashmun.

One odd thing though. They prefer being alone to being anywhere where they cannot hijack all available attention = where someone gets some attention.

But they are obviously terrified of being alone. I think this is because when we are alone, we are alone with ourselves.

Consider what that means. The narcissist denies the existence of his inner self. When alone that becomes impossible to do.

It is hard to ward off moments of self-awareness when alone. Narcissists are terrified of moments of self-awareness.

Normal people like being alone at times, to commune with themselves. Narcissists dread it. Their entire lives are spent DISTRACTING themselves with trivial pursuits, so that they never REFLECT, never look inward.

This is all about unknowing what they are. All about identifying with image and unknowing that they have an inner self. All about forgetting what they are and what they have done.

When they are alone, repressed thoughts they don't want occur. Repressed memories they don't want surface to consciousness. Repressed feelings they don't want struggle to rise to consciousness.

They hate being alone with a terrible of fear it. Like as if in being alone, they fear to see a ghost.

That is why their lives are spent running pillar to post from one trivial distraction to another. It's really pathetic when you catch on and see what they are doing. I know one who used to live in the basement because he couldn't command his family's attention. Four or five times a day, like someone who was about to pee his pants, he had to run off to a bar to escape being alone, a place where he'd have the undivided attention of the bartender at least.

At 10:05 AM, Blogger Kathy said...

PS, in a way they do need others as a point of reference to prove the "they" that they make-believe in - their image - exists.

But note that the flip-side is to annihilate their true inner selves.

It's how they maintain their delusions. They'd rather die than lose their delusions.

At 11:00 AM, Blogger AvyGrrl said...

this gave me a sad case of the giggles. I think you're 100% correct.

At 11:09 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I really like the comment “their lives are spent running pillar to post from one trivial distraction to another”.

Thinking back it really was EVERY moment, that he was looking for a distraction.

He would get in his car I had been driving and actually LOOK around for something to complain about, the car was too dirty, I put on too many miles, I was putting a fold in his car mats. Next it would be pulling things out of the cupboard and saying “oh, did I buy these?”. Uhhhhh… it NEVER ended.

At 11:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Narcissists don't ever change and neither do their lives.

These mutants are the most boring, dependent, needy sub-humans on the face of the earth. Because there is no chance for transformation, growth or change from within, their outer lives are also barren and stagnant. Narcissists live the most mundane existence. They are preversly lazy and complacent. Keeping themselves busy with trivial pursuits is exactly right. They don't accomplish anything of subtance because they are virtually empty vessels, just a human shell. They are not able to love because love requires that we transcend the ego which is impossible for them. And until we truly love ourselves and others there can be no chance of lasting happiness, peace or redemption. So, I find comfort and satisfaction knowing that these freaks are actually miserable and when alone are suffering in their own private hell.

They construct a little nest of illusions with sufficient narcissistic supply and they NEVER venture outside of that nest. They have no sense of joy, fun, adventure or spontaniety - they can't because their carefully built world of delusions is really a fragile house of cards and if they were to venture out in to the real world and be around real, healthy people their world would come crumbling down in the blink of an eye. Their small minds create small worlds. They may be crazy but not confined in the legal sense but they are definitely stuck in their self-imposed prisons.

At 1:37 PM, Blogger Kathy said...

"So, I find comfort and satisfaction knowing that these freaks are actually miserable and when alone are suffering in their own private hell."

Though I agree with most of what you say - in fact I think the rest of what you say is important and absolutely true - I am sure that you are wrong here about this one thing: Narcissists are not miserable inside. Not normally, that is. Normally, they are happy as blissful little birdies in a state of plenitude of grace.

Only an abandonned narcissist, an all-alone narcissist, suffers one teeny weeny bit.

Like that guy exiled to his basement. Until he was retired, that didn't bother him one bit, because he just slept all the time at home and got plenty of attention from people at work to make up for his family's rejection.

It would be nice to believe otherwise though. Wouldn't we love to believe that narcissists are actually miserable inside?

That would be a kind of quasi justice. Nothing is harder to accept than the fact that there is no justice. There is no Being in Sky seeing to it - at least not this side of the grave.

In fact, even if the narcissist were miserable, that wouldn't be satisfying, because misery in the narcissist does no justice to the victim. The victim's life is still ruined and the victim suffers the damage till his or her dying day. No satisfaction without repair of that damage.

Therefore, any pleasure out of misery in the narcissist is just vindiction, not the satisfaction that comes through justice.

I dearly wanted to believe the same thing myself for years. But eventually I had to face facts and give up that cherished myth.

See. Narcissists are delighted with the way they are 99% of time. At least 99% of the time. How often does an unwanted moment of self-awareness bother them? How often does something stir a twinge of conscience that they must immediately re-repress? How often does a feeling stir that they must immediately re-repress?

Hardly ever. Once a week, maybe for a moment? Two or three times a week for a moment? That is hardly an unhappy life. That is hardly being miserable inside.

On the other hand, how often do narcissists experience an elated high by putting somebody else down? 20 times a day - in virtually every human interaction. How often do they feel elated at conning praise and admiration they don't deserve? 20 times a day.

That's a happy life.

Bottom line: narcissists are happy. They are delighted being the way they are, and that's exactly why they have chosen to be the way they are.

It is only when they are alone that the feelings, knowledge, and self-awareness they repress keeps struggling to consciousness so relentlessly that it makes them miserable. Even then, a narcissist can often busy himself or herself with busywork and other distractions to keep deluded = happy as a lark and thinking it's great to be them.

The only way to impose this punishment on them to is to do as post said: lock them up alone. Then, and only then, do they suffer.

At 2:53 PM, Anonymous holywatersalt said...

Kathy -
I agree they are blissful, but I, as a religious person, think it's the lull of living entrenched in sin. It's a way of life- they are numb to their behavior and it's destruction, actually delighting in it, because they choose the sick rewards of temporal satisfaction ( screw whomever, steal,lie, play games) rather than exerting real effort, for honest rewards.

Here's a good one for you- I wish you knew these two -well from a distance: two psychopaths ( one is pedophile and bisexual, philanderer) the other (philanderer, child neglector, liar and sloth) both Christians and now...new found friends. It's too weird...it will implode, but the supposedly straight one enjoys being chased by gay men....uh, huh...all at Church..every Sunday...better than cable. They both chase women at church,particularly in ministry...
and have caught at least one and there's pics..the one is using to blackmail the woman with.


At 6:35 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thanks Kathy, you really clarified things for me. I "wish" the narcissists was suffering inside but it makes sense that they aren't. I always thought people lash out at others because they are unhappy but I guess the narc lashes out at others because it makes them happy. The trouble is I is compare them to normal people which is a mistake because they defy everything that is normal and human. These narcs truly are a shameless species and in a class all their own.

At 11:34 PM, Anonymous Barbara said...

I have to agree with Kathy. They aren't suffering. They aren't like us and don't know what it is to be normal so the way they are feels perfectly fine and even PREFERABLE to them.

They need a reflection or they start to wither. Of course if they wither or their lies are uncovered - they smear, attack, spin... just to get back to their comfort zone.

Therapy is like an annoying mosquito to them. They feel no pain, no remorse - they can't really FEEL at all. The closest these guys get to feeling is an orgasm and then they ask their hand - "was it good for you?" and of course THEIR hand says "the best baby!"

They aren't even really human, IMHO

At 12:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Not just a sock puppet. A stupid sock puppet. There's even a kit at the book store to get them started.

At 10:09 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Bottom line: narcissists are happy. They are delighted being the way they are, and that's exactly why they have chosen to be the way they are."

But, since it's based on a false image, it's actually a lie. They NEED others to prop that lie. I view it in the same way someone does heroin or meth. So long as they have that "drug"(source of supply), they are happy (euphoric). Without it, they are, well, not. So, it's a false sense of happiness(like the false sense of security amphetamines bring),and it's not something an N will easily let go of. Addicts, especially meth addicts, have a difficult time leaving addictions behind. For someone who delights in tearing down others to feel superior, it's impossible.

Since they're so happy, then why not be like them? It must be a great life, so why not emulate it? Who cares about the suffering it may cause? It's not happening to you. Ns are happy, right? The rewards are great, right? So, why not become like them?

Then I remember their "delightful" existence is nothing more than emptiness, and these are the same people who get upset when someone no longer wants anything to do with them. Their "happiness" is entirely based on "sources of supply". No real self-sufficiency. *barfs*

At 11:48 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Was it here that I read that if someone steps back and forth over the line between reality and delision that it becomes harder to distinguish between the two?

I am wondering about your opinion on this Kathy - my N seemed to get deeper and deeper into delusion - making me more and more sinister in his twisted thinking as a way to justify the way he was treating me.

I mean REALLY delusional. He believed his own outrageous lies and repeated them to others in my character assasination.

I read on Vaknin's site about how an N can get deeper and deeper into paranoia and even more dangerous delusions to the point where they end up even more dangerous than at first. And also more pathetic.


In the five years I have known my N, I have seen him sink deeper and deeper into a life of delusion and outrageous lies, to the point where I truly believe that eventually he will feel justified at killing someone.

It may just be someone in a bar who looks at him the wrong way. A total stranger. But the N will feel justified in slamming him in the head with a beer mug.

After all, every look, gesture, action is designed to hurt the N right? How dare this stranger look at him wrong!

It's funny, but in one of his bizzare middle-of-the-night voicemails he left me not so long ago, the N simply said..."Into the Wild..."

I believe it was a reference to the Sean Penn movie about a young man who believed he was omnipotent and eventually died all alone.

The only thing I've ever said that EVER seemed to affect him was my belief that as he abused me, KARMA would catch up to him.

He's superstitious I guess. But I truly believe he is deathly afraid that this life will catch up with him.

He whistles louder and louder every day.

At 2:54 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I have seen over and over how their Karma catches up with them. they destroy every single relationship they become involved in including friendships and they usually get ugly or sick when they get older. All that evilness begins to show on the outside.

At 3:08 PM, Anonymous Barbara said...

Anonymous, you said:

But, since it's based on a false image, it's actually a lie. They NEED others to prop that lie.

But they don't know its a lie. They tend to believe their own b.s.

So if they don't know its a lie they have no reason to feel bad. Do they? They think they are just fine and we (the truth tellers) are just annoyances to be silenced.

At 3:34 PM, Blogger Kathy said...

Barabara, exactly. The bottom line is that they don't feel bad.

This is the hardest truth to face. But knowing the truth does set you free.

No karma, no God, is going to take care of the matter for you.

This doesn't mean that you can't believe in God if you choose to. But it does mean that you can't view him as your servant, a kind of big brother to sic on anyone who beats you up. You either allow the N to have what he stole, or you don't.

If you allow the N to get away with it, that's because it wasn't worth fighting for or because you haven't the power to win justice.

Otherwise, you get off your duff and take care of this busniness - your business - yourself.

If everyone who could did, Ns would soon be out of business.

At 4:07 PM, Blogger Kathy said...

anonymous, you say that "They destroy every single relationship"

What relationships? They have no real human relationships.

They are parasites. Parasites have PARASITIC relationships. The other party is exploited in a way that makes it a HOST, not a friend, lover, ally, or whatever. A host. To be sucked on, period.

You make the fallacious assumption that Ns have real human relationships with their hosts and value these relationships for their own sake. They don't. They suck each host dry and discard him or her like the weekly trash. They suffer no loss.

If you abandon an N, they are sad only until they have replaced you with a new host to suck on. Like you replace a broken computer. No mourning. Usually within weeks.

Then they forget that you ever existed.

You mean nothing to them. Facing that fact is crucial, no matter how hard a blow it is to our ego.

You say that Ns get ugly or sick when they get old? And that this is their punishment?

I think that's wishful thinking. Many people get ugly or sick when they get old. Indeed, the abused victims of narcissists often do. All that brutal abuse begins to show.

Only for rare and feeting moments do Ns suffer self-awareness and feel bad. Because they delude themselves.

Consequently, they are carefree and happy. It's great to be them. They are perfect.

Delusion. That's the power of delusion. You cannot deny it.

Why is it so necessary to believe that evil will befall you if you do evil like an N does? Do we need this THREAT to choose good?

I don't need that threat to make me behave. I love goodness for its own sake. And I think truly good people always do. They will be good even though they know that the wicked prosper.

At 7:45 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

After nine painful years trying to understand and "love" a narcissist, when I had finally come to the realization that I was done, my N made the most incredulous statement that I laughed out loud. It went like this: After having one of our last sexual encounters, he left the room to get another drink(he was uncharacteristically drunk). Upon returning and seeing me lying stretched out and naked on the bed, he stood there gazing at me and said "you have no idea how beautiful you are." This is coming from a man who NEVER told me that I was attractive. The next day when I told him about it he looked at me with shock and said "I said that?" ( with the emphasis on "I".) I burst out laughing and realized I was done. Thank God!! It has been 9 months now and I don't regret a moment without him.

At 6:11 AM, Blogger Lynn said...

The Narc hates to be alone, that much is true, but they do have moments of lucidity and realise there is something 'wrong' inside of them. But it is quickly swept aside. Now that my X-NPD is living alone, suddenly he's out now and then, when before lying around on the couch was what he did EVERY night and weekend. He NEVER went anywhere. It was his form of control. Take up the whole couch, battle for control of it with our 3 year old daughter, be Lord of the Remote and close his eyes, fall asleep and not watch his movie that he insisted he 'needed' to watch.

Now that he's alone, he doesn't give a stuff about sleeping on the couch, boasts that he's awake until late, doesn't watch TV any more and he goes out.

They cannot be an N without supply, and they hate being alone. But if my X's miserable exterior was anything to go off, then I'd say he had many moments of 'misery' inside. But they brush it off, like an annoying fly, and become 'happy' again, purposely blissfully go about finding new supply and recreating their own reality, in particular as to why their last partner didn't hang around for too long, none of which had anything to do with them.

As for Anonymous at 11.48AM - do you know my X? Coz you've described him exactly! But I agree with Kathy, I don't think they suffer in their own private hell, nah, they're too quick to consider themselves a victim and everything that has gone wrong with their lives is everyone else's doing.

At 7:44 PM, Blogger So, what IS in a heart? said...

"But they don't know its a lie. They tend to believe their own b.s.

So if they don't know its a lie they have no reason to feel bad. Do they? They think they are just fine and we (the truth tellers) are just annoyances to be silenced."

Kind of like addicts, ESPECIALLY meth addicts. Many of them never realize that they have a problem.

The desire for the "euphoria" is that great.

At 10:45 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow- I am so grateful for this site which I just stumbled upon. After being tormented by one of these who ended up commiting suicide a few years back I am still searching for peace and clarity. I keep having flash back of little things and this topic brought back how he would verbally abuse me then slyly look to see if his words had an affect on me- its like he was checking the impact of his abuse. I learned I could stop a continuous rant if I just looked defeated or sad or stunned even. It was such a charade. If he could see I was genuinely vulnerable or disgusted or had caught on to the absurdity of his statements- he would tweak the speech and start over. Jesus. If he was successful though he'd have this smile that made me sick, just a victory at the onslaught. All this was done with his head held low and cocked to the side so no one could see these expressions. I thought this indicated shame or embarrassemnt over his words/ behaviour but in time I saw that it was a self protective thing so he could seem so innocent. this seemed to be a source of extreme pleasure for him-he really needed the reaction he got out of me and there was hell to pay if I didnt respond right. When I finally realized he was thriving off of causing emotional turmoil, I stopped responding and eventually put him. For this he kidnapped me and I wont mention the rest suffice to say during the ordeal I showed no fear or emotion. I will never forget how defeated he looked by my stoicism. His response was to stage a horrifying public suicide by cop at a school witnessed by preschoolers and done over the phone so the whole town would know. Additionally he left behind an open letter to the city in a public park detailing how this was all my fault for breaking up with him, along with a bunch of self pitying passages and projections. There has been much speculation in the aftermath including folks blaming me for abandoning him. I have a feeling that being alone with no one propping him up for the first time did force him to look at himself squarely for the abuser that he was and he had no one else to project his negativity unto. Even his friends kept a bit of distance it seems. I truly feel all the self hatred is what really killed him and as I deal with other narcissts I can now see, in glimpses, their soul depravity and hatred that I used to excuse as "bad childhoods" and "being misunderstood". I can longer pity these folks- they bring misery and destruction to the rest of humanity. I'm just glad they are being uncovered for what they are.

At 3:28 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Could an N be dangerous to others - in their attempt to get attention? ANy relationship with munchausen?

At 10:27 PM, Blogger Kathy said...

"Could an N be dangerous to others - in their attempt to get attention?"

New to the subject? Check out the main site and this blog, as well as other resources on NPD.

As for munchausen, that's another bit (like codependence) of pseudoscience with which the snake-oil salesmen of psychology are plaguing the indiscipline. There probably is no such "mental illness."

Nonetheless, the fact of such behavior is established. It is a perfect example of how Ns use others with brutal disregard for their rights, feelings, and the damage done to another human being, which they view like any psychopath does = as just a tool.

At 9:30 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yes, I think it makes sense to say that there is not really a separate mental illness of Munchausen. I am seeing this behavior though right now with the narcissist/borderline that is affecting my life. I'm also seeing parental alienation behavior which is a questionable mental illness as well. Although the behavior exists, I can see that it would be a sign/symptom of the personality disorder and not a separate issue. I don't think anyone could behave this way without having a personality disorder in the first place. That may be helpful when this comes up in court. I've been reading that in some courts Munchausen and parental alienation are difficult to prove. I think everyone agrees though, that personality disorders really exist. Thank you for the insight!


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