My Story
Believe it or not, I am often asked about my story. But I don't tell it. There are several reasons, but here are the two most important ones.
First, most of the narcissits I know, or have known, or know about, are probably still alive. Even these creeps have a right to privacy. Plus, innocent people associated with them could be damaged by publically exposing them. Besides, that isn't the purpose of this site.
And neither is telling my own story. I see nothing wrong with such a blog or website, but that isn't what this one is for. It's stated purpose is it's stated purpose - nothing more, nothing less, and I write under my real name.
Yet there is no reason to keep secret that my father was a malignant narcissist. He died a few years ago.
I was called over to be there when the coroner and priest arrived. I felt nothing. Absolutely nothing.
Yet, strange it seemed that his body sitting there in the chair where he died, looked human in death. I responded to that.
In fact, for some strange reason, everyone else got up and walked out of the room. Like they forgot it was there. Like it was something to just leave laying around.
I dare say that I was the only atheist on the premises, the only who had hated this man on the premises, and yet the only one with enough respect for the presence of a dead person's body to sit respectfully with it until the undertaker took it away.
Respect - you know, that something he never had for anyone he wasn't scared of.
Finally the priest got around to saying something to Frank's offspring. "Well, we know we don't have to worry about where your father is now," he said, "because surely he is in Heaven."
That almost did it. I'm normally a thoughtful person, but I nearly lost it this time. Before I knew it, I was giving that priest a wondering double-take and had my mouth half open with these words on my tongue:
"Frank is just lucky there is no God, father, because otherwise he'd be getting his ass singed about now."
But I caught them. The man was dead, this was somebody else's house, and I didn't have to correct the fool in black, who thinks he knows enough to judge people just from the way they act in a pew.
But that's what happens when somebody tries to steal my past by imposing a false history on my life: you are going to hear me ANSWER your falsehood with the truth about Frank loud and clear.
Otherwise, I never have anything to say about the guy.
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34 Comments:
Wow. I agree that after we have been abused by these narcissists throughout our whole lives, all we have left is to stand up for the truth and to no longer let their perverted, distorted, revised version of history stand. That is it. I am impressed.
"Respect...that something he never had for anyone he wasn't scared of"
SO TRUE.
Were your father and my late mom related? LOL
Granted I cried at her funeral. Of course my ex-NH said, why are you crying? you 2 hated each other!
I get mighty sick of everyone just telling me to "let it go" and then lie about what a wonderful person she was. Maybe she was to them - but she took a personal and singular interest in violating my boundaries and being malicious to me (of course projecting it back)
One of my best stories was when I moved to NYC, she called every night for 3 months straight driving my roommate NUTS. She would fill up my answering machine with ranting about how my moving here was killing her. Years later I found out she'd taken out life insurance on me without me knowing because she'd convinced my Dad I was going to end up dead here very quickly. Need I say its 28 years later...
But the story is this: When I first lived here it was in a very tiny walkup. She came and INSISTED I could do better. I told her it was all I could afford. So she asked for the real estate sections of all 3 big papers (this was prior to the internet). She & I went to the corner to get them. When she saw the prices her response? (are you sitting down) "You had these printed specially and planted them with that paper seller just to HURT MY FEELINGS and MAKE ME FEEL STUPID." She packed her bags and left.
My late father, finally, a few years after her death - made a comment to me about how I didn't like her. I told him "what's to like with someone who wants you dead." He started to argue and then I reminded him of 3 or 4 major incidents he was around for and told him - are those the actions of a sane person?
He finally admitted she had "some problems" and apologized for not sticking up for me. My response, "well Dad, I know you are still under her control somewhat and while your apology is appreciated... its a day late and a dollar short."
For once he actually understood.
Barabara, are your father and my mother related?
I never feel in any position to advise the spouse of a narcissist, but I do urge them to hear the words of people like you and I about our other parent. We all come from different circumstances, but there is a common theme among the adult children of narcissists about the other parent.
Sorry Kathy you had to suffer through such a difficult childhood, but thank you for taking your pain and using it as an opportunity to ease the pain of others. Your site has been a source of strength, support, and comfort for me as I try to heal from the damage caused by a long-term relationship with a narcissist.
I don't get the witless wonders who say you ought to pray for the soul of somebody like that. When I was a believer I would have prayed for almost anyone to go to Heaven - anyone but the WICKED that is, for crying out loud!
Sheesh, what do such people have between the ears? Besides hypocrisy thus exposed by doing something no true believer would do.
That's what we are talking about here in malignant narcissists = diabolical people who are sadistic and harm others just to harm them and then make a mockery on top of it all with a pious act. That is sickening.
One might pray for them to change, but when they die as wicked as ever, no true believer prays for their soul to go to Heaven.
Recommending someone like that for Heaven when they die is like recommending a charlatan for a job. No true believer would do that. Indeed, if Heaven is where the malignant narcissists go, I'd prefer the other place.
Kathy - reading Nina Brown's CHILD OF THE SELF-ABSORBED and Alice Miller's THE BODY NEVER LIES really were profoundly validating for me.
I think these Ns are all from the same pod.
One more note, my ex-NH and late N-mother? ADORED EACH OTHER! When I married him? She took down ALL the pictures of me in her home and put up photos of JUST HIM.
My poor late father was mortified. I will pray for him for sure.
Oh really, Barbara? See, this is where I'm getting a little fuddled. Why would two of these loons be attracted to each other? How could there be enough oxygen in the room for the both of them?
I've been trying to figure out the pair of slowly evolving, ever more ??!whatthehell!?? people who seemed normal when they were raising me. Is it generally true that only one of the pair would be THE Narcissist? With my folks, it's like there's a third thing - it's a kind of carefully crafted Family Lore that's the Narcissist. And all must worship at the altar of that.
Kathy ... thoughts?
I don't know. But i have heard of it and seen it myself, more than once - two Ns getting along just fine. In fact, being friends with no one else but each other in that place. Devoted to each other.
It happens. Remember that they are frauds. They aren't doing anything for their purported reasons. I think they get along only because they fear each other. I think of them as like vampires, who recognize other vampires on sight and alwys cling to their own kind, never attacking other vampires.
That would be stupid wouldn't it? They remind me of scorpions, who have an elaborate mating dance to insure that they both understand it is supposed to be a friendly encounter, not lunch.
In any case, I think that if there are two narcissists in a place, they will get along just fine. Because they are afraid of each other: they know the other narcissist is just as lowdown and dirty as they are.
sadly enough i am starting to see my mom as an N as well (first time ive said that) and she thinks my NH is great. years ago i said to someone i married my mom. they are enough different but enough the same if you know what i mean. shiver up spine. Anyway- kathy the way you spoke of your father is how im feeling about my H. for a long time he falls asleep in the middle of everyone by the tv (the elephant in the room way) and i have said to friends its like having a dead body on display in the parlor. i used to flip him off on the way by (tsk tsk) but any more i feel like my my feelings are dying (is that redundant?) i almost hope i stay like that when he really does die. normally i would be ashamed to think that and embarrassed to admit it- but it is so nice to have people here who understand exactly what i mean. no judgements here- just understanding! i picture life without him (being alive) and i feel more fine that way than any other. chilling huh? not too us. jt
I think it's important to think through these things. We can't let what others will think of us be our moral compass, because as I pointed out in the previous post, the bystanders aren't thinking: they're just cattle staying oriented with the herd.
That herd may one day find the thought of something like the Holocaust (cleansing European society of Jews) unthinkable. The the very next day, they haven't the foggiest idea what might be wrong with it!
That is not morality, let alone trainably mentally retarded: it's just shameless hypocrisy, political correctness.
How can you feel anything but releif at the death of a person who abuses you? To expect anything else is irrational.
The N constantly attacks you in one way or another. Their death means an end to the attacks. What? you're supposed to be unhappy about that? You're supposed to be sad at your abuser's passing?
I agree that dancing and singing "Ding, dong, the witch is dead!" is usually inappropriate (unless you truly were in mortal danger from him).
I just felt nothing. I was acutely aware of how strange that was. I wasn't proud of feeling nothing. But I wasn't ashamed of it either. I was just kind of amazed. Truly, my humanity is summoned by the sight of a dead or injured animal. I used to be a lifeguard and have several times helped the victims of accidents mainly through calm empathy upon first arriving at the scene. But here I was, sitting opposite the body of my dead father, and I felt NOTHING.
Frankly, no one who had seen him with his mask off (especially to my mother while she was dying) could see any thinking, feeling human being inside him to relate to.
Because he wasn't human to human beings. That was his doing, not mine.
So, I think it's important to contemplate and understand such feelings (or lack thereof). Generally, your natural feeling make far more sense than all the moralizing of the bystanders.
"Because he wasn't human to human beings. That was his doing, not mine."
Two things:
1. It has been my husband's consistent repeating of "relationships go both ways, and your parents don't come toward you" that has been my eye-opening. This is why I think it's important for someone to say the words that are true, and keep saying them. It takes awhile to get all the distortion out of one's sight if outrageous behavior has been normative.
and, 2. I do feel compassion for the inhuman human. I do feel sorry for the N.
And I do not think feeling sorry for a dangerous being necessitates allowing the dangerous being to harm me or to harm anyone in my care. I also do not think that my sorrow over their self-isolating choices necessitates a gag order for me. If the other person standing there is listening, I say something now. I never used to - it seemed "disloyal" (good clue what I was dealing with, eh?). But now I do.
Result? Siblings and I don't talk about it, but interestingly enough, my younger siblings have relatively sane home lives. The three of us younger ones figured it out. And my sister-in-law has company in Sanity Land, even if we all visit Loonyville every once in awhile.
There's a problem with the idea of an "inhuman human." It's an oxymoron.
What is humanity? It's isn't walking upright on two legs. It's the opposite of inhumanity.
It's healing an injured animal. It's binding up the wounds of a fallen foe. It's outrage at the Holocaust and terrorism and other such crimes against our common humanity.
This is an old theme in art. Carl Theodore Dreyer used to drum it. I think he stated it as the problem of some people refusing to become "fully human."
Ns loathe humanity. They regard themselves as a higher order of being. Ns have as much humanity for us as we have for a bug we squish in walking down a sidewalk.
I know of no narcissist who ever had one bit of feeling for anyone but him or her self. That ain't humanity.
I am not at all sure that they can't rejoin the human race, but I am sure they are out of it. By choice.
Virgil chastized Dante for pitying them for this very reason.
I agree with the wise man who once said, "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy."
There is nothing to relate to in them. Just an ego, a monstrous one, one that ate the real person. It blocks any attempt to connect with it.
While we still hope that they might change, we can feel something. Otherwise, I don't see how.
Afterthought: I can understand feeling heartbreakingly sorry for an N. We mourn the person we thought they were. We want that person back. But once you have gone far enough down that road to see that he never existed and that he'd as soon eat you as look at you, the feelings die. There is simply nothing to connect with there.
"While we still hope that they might change, we can feel something. Otherwise, I don't see how."
Well, to be honest, my own compassion is of the sort that feels sorry for anyone else who got exactly what he asked for and what was asked for was a bad thing.
If you feed your face too much for too long and never burn the calories by moving around a bit, then you end up killing yourself slowly. I have compassion for the pain of that, but not in a way that means the person "should" be able to have no consequences for choices. We all get what we choose. I think this is a law of the universe, within the confines of our own lives.
And the Narcissist has chosen to be the only person in his or her own world, and I feel sorry for people who are in the end utterly alone.
But we get what we choose.
And I don't choose to be on the menu for the cannibalism that happens in the world of a narcissist. (And I think that when we do choose to do that, we get what we choose.)
I think you just put the fine point on this that was needed.
You helped me today too. I think I've finally figured out how certain family members have received more "affection" and certain ones have received less, with the choices seeming to be in direct opposition to what the out-loud "values" of The Family have been stated to be.
Now I see a little more. It's not "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" -- it's "you feed off my ego, I'll feed off yours." A sort of symbiotic parasitic thing. The so-called values are ... um ... well, they're just sort of beside the point? The values are the equation's variables maybe. You can put anything in there, but the equation will still hold if there's equal ego on each side. Something like that.
For years now, I've been utterly baffled as to how a sibling who goes counter to all the stated values ends up being the sibling with all the time, attention, money (affection's currency), and focus, while the siblings that live like they were raised to live get a kind of hostility and rejection and constant pick pick pick.
Now I think I know. Thank you. Cannibals of a feather seem to flock together. You've cleared up a lot for me today.
Kathy!!!
To your knowledge, do Narcissists often have children who are physically ill? Does that happen a lot? (A sort of Münchhausen's By Proxy thing that's not quite so obvious?)
A connection of sorts has just now blitzed past my mind's eye, and I want to know if it amounts to anything.
Thank you so much for this personal post.
I have worried a lot -- since childhood really -- over how to handle my father's death when it arrives. On the one hand, I don't think I can handle people telling me what a fabulous person he was. On the other hand, I don't think it would be appropriate to spend the aftermath of his death bad-mouthing him. So, I foresee myself playing the part of the dutiful, grieving daughter, just as I have played the part of the dutiful, loving daughter all my life.
Indeed, this is an issue I struggle with even as he is still living. I think I am adept at keeping my father at an emotional distance and also biting him if he gets out of line. But, since my mother is still married to him and seems to be in denial as to his true nature, it makes it hard for me to do anything other than pretend that we have always been a big happy family. I worry that it would harm my mother to express what I think the truth is. I also worry that, if she sees the truth, that she will feel enormously guilty for allowing my father to treat me the way he did. I worry that she will have enormous regrets and terrible grief at having stayed for decades with a man she might otherwise have left but for her belief that divorce would have harmed me.
One of the major aspects of my father's damaging behavior is the enormous barrier it has created between me and my mother -- not to mention the dishonesty and the humiliating tolerance of my abuser in which I feel compelled to participate.
-- The Happy Feminist
Ha! Your prior post on bystanders helps answer my comment.
Problem is, my mother is a culpable bystander whom I happen to love and want to protect.
Yeah, I think she made a moral error in failing to protect me, but that doesn't stop my desire to protect her from the full horror of the truth -- the truth that she devoted her life to a twisted guy when she (and I) would have been better off if she had packed her bags and gotten us out of there in 1976.
Incidentally, I have made it a point since my adolescence to stand up to my dad if he starts dumping on my mom. But I don't know how to oppose the myth of the happy family (which feeds into my father's delusions) without causing my mother enormous pain. Especially since she is pushing 70 and unlikely to leave now, even assuming she might be inclined to do so.
-- Happy Feminist
Not sure what you mean, but I have several times heard of (mainly) female narcissists having this Münchhausen's. They make the child sick to get the attention of medical personnel. In other words, there is thought to be a connection between NPD and many cases of that, because it's for attention.
But, for the exact same reason (in reverse) to deny a child attention (as if it would detract from her stock), I know of a mother who wouldn't take her son to a doctor when he was injured working on the farm or even when he later developed a hernia. Both injuries troubled him throughout life. Go figure - 2 NPD mothers who do the exact opposite of each other, but for the same lousy motive = attention.
Are passive-aggressive men also narcissists?
I have lived with a passive-aggressive man for 17 years and he has drained every ounce of emotional energy from me. His mother was a controlling, manipulative horror - a narcissist, I guess.
I can't remember when I first realised we weren't playing on the same team but it was a very long time ago.
His outlook on life is terminally negative but mostly he says nothing at all.
Favourite phases:
'I forgot'.
'I don't remember that'.
'I'm not stopping you'.
'I haven't got it.' (Money needed for important joint purposes like the mortgage etc).
We sit in a pub or a restaurant and he will say - nothing. Or pick up a newspaper and start reading.
I had a four-year relationship with a narcissistic man when I was very young. He was very like my father but with a criminal bent - the classic con-man.
Many years later, I met my current partner and loved him so much because he was so kind and accepting of me. So very much the opposite of the angry abusers I was used to.
But now I think he's the same, but it's all covert and it's slowly killing me.
Is this narcissism?
::But once you have gone far enough down that road to see that he never existed and that he'd as soon eat you as look at you, the feelings die. There is simply nothing to connect with there. ::
Kathy, that gives me so much comfort, because I've been worrying about the COMPLETE absence of feeling I have for my Nmother now. This woman has caused me forty-two years of suffering, anxiety, tormented love, and she used to be the center of my world. But I stopped speaking to her since last Christmas, when she sort of "blew up" the family holiday because I wouldn't obey some ridiculous whim of hers.
I still feel sorrow and love for my Dad, even though he is a very weak and passive person. I actually think he would let her murder me if she wanted to, and not lift a finger to stop her.
But the strange thing is, I no longer fear Mother, and I can't find any love for her in my heart. Maybe just a trace of pity, and that's all. I have wondered what kind of person that makes me. You have made me realize that's okay. THANK YOU.
BTW, I have moved my husband and children to another state, to be away from my parents. I can't believe life can be this peaceful. Even joyful. Just to be my own person, finally.
Anonymous at 9AM, yes, some narcissits are like that. Actually, they are all alike, so it would be more accurate fro me to say that some have adopted this style.
In fact i know of one who fit your description exactly. His favorite line was "I don't know." I got ticked off once and asked him "Then what's your name?"
"I don't knnnnn...." Boy was he mad that I outed him like that.
That bit in the restaurant part - blatantly denying you attention, right? No normal person ever does that, so it is a screaming sign of personality disorder. Did he stare at some light fixture across the room, deeply engrossed in it for 20 minutes on end, apparantly contemplating the depth of its soul as if it were much more interesting than you?
It is often in the so-called "little things" (which hurt - really hurt - and humilate us in public) like this that we get our most clear warnings. There is no way to write that off as anything but warped mind games of somebody who hasn't the balls to cut the subtlty and just insult you out loud.
Really makes going out to eat fun, eh?
Every narcissit has their own style - a way they have figured out to best get what they want in THEIR pathological space. Men who can get away with physical violence are apt to. Those who don't dare for some reason, take the subtle route. Women usually do too, simply because they can't beat up men. Though I know one who assaults other women.
Oh, God, Kathy.
I don't know how I failed to mention 'I don't know'.
This is, actually, his favourite phrase, closely followed by 'I forgot'.
And he says 'I don't know' in a tone of total indignation, with the emphasis on the 'I', as if I'd asked the most absurd question in the world, no matter what the question is.
Sometimes I think he really isn't aware and other times I think he knows exactly what he's doing.
As for insulting me publicly, he's been doing this from the start really. His late mother, sisters and friends have always treated me with disrespect and I've only recently realised it's because they got their cue from him.
Actually, no. I realised this a long time ago but I didn't want to face it.
I don't know what to do.
Kathy, I just figured something out.
You know that aggravating "game" where someone holds out something as if to hand it to the other person, but then, just as the receiver is about to take it, it gets jerked away? Over and over?
That is what it's like to grow up under the authority of "nice" and "moral" narcissists who care that they keep up a certain kind of reputation, even to their kids. It feels like a setup. It feels like being offered something just for the glee the would-be giver gets out of offering ... and the power they get from capriciously yanking it back again.
And I've also figured out a reply should my moaning maternal parent ever start up again about how much she "misses" me and how much "loss" she feels. I intend to communicate some version of, "you have room in your life for only certain kinds of people. And I'm not that kind of person."
Also, I don't think any longer that anyone else can "steal" my history by rewriting it. The most they're capable of is writing their own - nobody can steal mine, though. It wasn't all bad either. For some people it is, but for me it wasn't. I know what it was, and others can call it anything they want to call it. Over time, I've become an expert at the eloquent silence, and I reserve my comments for ears that can hear.
jt says: i realized a lot of things for a long time too. and facing it is very painful. and figuring out what to do is hard. its good to ask and talk about it to people who can share their insight. at first i didnt understand when people just flat out said 'run away' ,then i did ,then when i tried i got sucked in again...it's like a weird game of backwards leap frog. in alanon there is much talk about detaching. thats another concept that takes a while to really understand,but that is a resource that is very helpful in understanding how to accomplish it. all of these things are processes with many layers- like peeling back and unwinding all the twists that were given. but you are acknowledging that the relationships you have are not healthy. thats a beginning. now what you can do is start finding resources that help you stand a little further back, take a look from a broader perspective and seek new ways of thinking- ways that are healthier.you'll learn how to disengage. make observations and ask us what we think.its a process. with many different feelings along the way. but distancing yourself emotionally and intellectually is very important and will lead back to a path of better health for you.you cant change away narcissism- you can change how YOU react to it. jt
also anonymous at 9:00-- your first half of you comment could have been typed by me almost word for word. ive been w NH for 24 years(with many feelings to sort through about that)He has drained every ounce of emo energy out of me. i have spent 24 7 analyzing and lamenting and talking on and on... guess what he and i have in common is we're both stuck on him !!! when i detach i am healthier- when i get too close and spend too much time on him i obsess. which is unhealthy.
he is very passive aggressive, very hostile and very good at controlling his temper - which makes it like living with a spring thats wound too tight with very little holding it in place. extreme tension filled life for me.
it seems very possible that his mother was an N.their whole family is very good at manipulating and diverting (part of it).
he has always had a very negative outlook on everything and is very cynical- with a false sense of humor that seems to mask it with the casual public. (ouch for me tho)your phrase terminally negative means A LOT.
one of our kids has spent some time with me and just last night was saying to me about our marriage that we just are 'very different people' i know him and i are not on the same team. it hurts so bad i cant even find the words wo out going on forever here. and the fact that people assume we are on the same team rubs salt in those wounds.very painful experiences these all are. healing needs to take a long time...
and kathy you are right-- its the little things that hurt the most-- the things you cant address for sooo long- the covert sniper attacks- the duck and cover they pull- the corrosiveness. the insidiousness of them. yes...healing takes a long time.your site helps with the restorations. jt
This is spot-on, Kathy...
My N is also dead. I carried her ashes into the cemetery in May and helped bury them, the last remains of what was my younger sister. Yet her lies lingered, a legacy of twisted evil, for months afterwards.
Someone said after the funeral, "Oh you must be heartbroken". No, I wasn't. My real sister died years ago or never really existed at all- not sure which is true and really don't care. It doesn't matter. I didn't cry- and I am still relieved that she is gone.
I went to her house after the fire that killed her because of simple human decency. Someone had to go in and remove her personal effects; my parents were completely incapable and unwilling. I did it with as much love for them as I could.
But as much as I love my parents, I will not allow the manipulations and lies of her past to continue. I am careful, because they were her victims, too. When the wild stories and lies are mentioned, I immediately point them out for that they are, as calmly and logically as I can. That will not be her legacy; she may be dead but her lies will not live. Never.
Sandy (Lil Sis) is dead. And other than sad for the sister I thought I knew, I feel NOTHING for the person she was except relieved that threat to myself and my family no longer exists in human form.
i have a question...it used to concern me that my NH and i have minimalistic conversations- until recently. i won't go into personal details but recently i sense he is scheming something. a subject has come up here that needs a decision soon-nothing major to normal people but he is dragging his feet. almost seems like he can't or has trouble making decisions. but last night it almost seemed that he has something in mind but just doesn't want to divulge the thoughts. of course i seem in opposition to him- i know what i want to do. apparently it doesn't match him. why can't or won't he be straight across if he knows what he wants. he's stalling to the point of irritating.any input? jt
They never tell you what they want. You can't drag it out of them with pliers.
"What restaurant do you want to go to?"
"I don't care. You pick whatever one one your want."
Then they find fault with it.
Substitute anything for the choice of restaurant.
They can't risk saying they want something. What if they don't get it then? How horrible that would be, because narcissists MUST win and get what they want, you know. That's why they dread ever revealing what they want.
I have trouble making decisions and voicing my wants. My parents are both narcissists. Growing up, if I voiced an opinion, it's a sure bet they would do the opposite of what I wanted. I was made to feel as if my choices were stupid. Actually this still happens even though I'm a 53 year old woman. I have a fear that I am a narcissist. How could I miss since that's all I've known?
Based on that you fear that you're a narcissist? That's simplistic. That can stem from a variety of things, not just NPD.
You either prey on people - just use them - or you don't. If you have NPD you know that there is something wrong with you. You just keep fleeing into denial and pretending, that's all.
Many normal people have two narcissistic parents. You are what you choose to be. Temptations are not causes.
Wow. Thank you for sharing this part of your life story. It hits home for me. And I too am an atheist.
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