Wednesday, August 02, 2006

Web War

Okay. I don’t want to land on either side on this Sam-Vaknin debate, because I’m not.

Vaknin’s writings are voluminous. I have read much but not nearly all, so I have but impressions. For the most part, what he says about narcissism rings true to me, because it squares with my experience with narcissists. What other narcissists write often doesn't square with that experience, but Vaknin’s writing almost always does. Other narcissists often set off my lie detector, but Vaknin virtually never does -- on the subject of NPD, that is. In fact, unlike other narcissists, he doesn’t try to make you feel sorry for narcissists. That’s a big plus in my book.

So I don't wish to discredit what he writes about NPD. I'm not qualified to sit in judgment of his credibility on this, and I have no desire to sit in judgment of it. Still, I don't mind saying that what he writes about NPD generally rings true to me.

I don't say this because I think Mr. Vaknin is an honest man. Narcissists are pathological liars because of the way they relate to the world around them. That means you can't believe them about what day of the week it is. They will claim that the earth is flat, the sky is purple, or that 2 + 2 = 5 to support their delusions about what is going on. They will lie to you about what they just said to you two seconds ago. They will lie to you about what you just said to them two seconds ago. And every two seconds they will alter their lie about what is going on so bewilderingly as to make you feel like Alice in Wonderland. And they throw their lie in your face, expecting YOU to behave as though it's true. If you refuse, they will try to cram it down your throat. In fact, narcissists often lie for no reason whatsoever except their pathological fear of Truth itself.

Knowing this, I always approach Mr. Vaknin's writing with a healthy dose of skepticism. But on NPD he's generally telling the truth as far as I can tell. My disagreements with him on that are few and when I disagree, I feel that he is just mistaken, not dishonest. Frankly, I'm amazed at that and have often wondered why on earth he'd tell the truth about NPD. Indeed, I can't believe that a narcissist is ever telling the truth unless he has a damned, good, self-serving reason to!

But, fortunately, on NPD he does. And readily admits it. He isn't explaining NPD out of the kindness of his heart. He's doing it to get ATTENTION, the narcissist's pain-killing drug. I mean, just Google “narcissism” and see all the attention he’s seeking and getting!

Somehow, he has made himself the foremost authority on NPD. He is even treated as a legitimate authority on the subject by psychiatrists. He admits that he thus achieves "guru status," which is nirvana to a narcissist. In fact, he has a cult following.

If what he said about NPD didn't square with what top psychiatrists know and with the experience of people like me, what he says would be attacked. And he knows it. So, to achieve and maintain his status and following, he must tell the truth about NPD, and I think that's why he does -- or at least tries to as much as possible.

BUT he is a narcissist. Duh!

Let’s substitute the name of some other predator for “narcissist” and see if people are making sense.

Let’s say tigers can talk. One tiger talks to us and tells us all about tigers, informing us that they view us as good to eat -- nothing more. They have this hunger that only eating us can fulfill. A tiger can resist the temptation, but you know what will eventually happen. We are are a tiger’s next meal, that’s all. They don’t relate to us. He explains what goes on in the mind of a tiger to make it a man-eater.


What astounding revelations these are! We are exceedingly grateful for this information!

So, what? Are we going to run up and hug that tiger?

Yikes, and they say sheep are stupid. But no sheep would ever run up and hug a wolf for explaining why wolves eat sheep.

Why would that tiger do this?

Look at what he’s getting from it. He is the star of the show! He has people crowded around, hanging on his every word. My, what an avalanche of ATTENTION he’s getting.

Vaknin has found a harmless (even helpful) way to get ATTENTION. Great! Good for him! I wish every narcissist would discover such a non-abusive way to get the attention they crave.

But his audience is mostly American, and how does he really feel about Americans? He doesn't hide it. Just click a few links and find out. Here's a taste of how he flew off the handle at one who ticked him off about the copyrights to an interview:

I hate Americans in general and their pusillanimous litigious minds in particular (as does most of the world).

It’s amazing how few people bother to drink responsibly: It’s all a matter of public record. First, see Vaknin’s curriculum vitae. Note that one doesn’t “graduate” from “a few semesters” in a school. He's often called "doctor" as though he's a medical doctor, but look again. The PhD he claims is in philosophy, with a major in “Philosophy of Physics,” a subject I never heard of, probably because physics is pure science, the antithesis of philosophy. People with doctoral degrees outside of medicine are called "doctor" only by their students and in other professional settings where they are practicing in that field as a profession.

What's more, you can see that Pacific Western University offers no such PhD program. You can see from this Wikipedia entry on PWU that it is an unaccredited diploma mill. As for being "Certified in Psychological Counseling Techniques by Brainbench," click the links on his Curriculum Vitae page and see that the transcript that appears has no name on it. As for Brainbench, just click the link and what it calls itself: an "employee/employment testing service" for "predicting employee success," not as an educational institution. Click through the myriad links to the Certification for Psychological Counseling Techniques, for this $49.95 product, you'll see the disclaimer:

Our Health Sciences certifications provide you the opportunity to demonstrate your knowledge of both health science and the laboratory and laboratory and patient techniques used to practice it. These certifications verify your knowledge of the concepts and subjects tested. Brainbench certification does not imply that the individual has the skills necessary to perform a specific procedure or treatment, or is licensed or authorized to practice any health care profession under any applicable laws.

Click the Learning link to find that their "teaching" includes nothing but the test (which you can retake as often as you want and which is presumably open-book), additional "practice tests," and access to a "Learning Center with specific content to help you improve your skills" -- no instructors, no practice or internships, no coursework, just a bunch of links.

And then the Jerusalem Post details here (the June 14, 1996 edition in “Supreme Court Rejects Appeal of Three Stock Manipulators" by Evelyn Gordon) why Vaknin did time in prison.

Vaknin doesn’t hide any of this. People just don’t look at it. Do look, and judge for yourself what it means.

As far as I know, he abuses no one. I mean, he wears a warning sign, so whose fault is it if people snuggle up to him? (I don't understand the attraction.) You can learn from his writing without becoming a fan who goes around the Web singing his praises like he's some sort of Messiah.

What's called for is a sense of measure. Many narcissists seek negative attention in lieu of the other kind, and it's not unheard of for a narcissist to use his own narcissism as a claim to fame. Nonetheless, Vaknin's writing on NPD does GOOD. Much good. And that should go to his credit. Can't we give credit where credit is due without forgetting that he IS a narcissist? I can.
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At 10:35 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Thank you for so clearly stating what have been my own thoughts on Sam Vaknin on the subject of narcissism. I have not understood the cultish following he has; neither have I understood the sign of the cross others make whenever his name is mentioned. I have seen victims of narcissists demonstrate fear of this man. They will act like if he said it, it must be a lie. Silly. If one truly has experienced a narcissist up close and personal then you can't help but notice that his descriptions comport with what you've seen with your own eyes. Anyway, thanks for your clear thoughts on this subject. I couldn't agree more. By the way, your "What Makes Narcissists Tick" website rocks. It is the site I recommend first and foremost to those who need to understand this alien life form. Thanks for all your effort to put NPD under the microscope and in the spotlight where others can be enabled to see it more clearly.

At 9:37 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I, too, recommend this site as the best narcissist site. I spent an entire Saturday reading it when I found it.

Sam has some very good points and insight but unfortunately, it gets all convaluted and circular as you clink link after link. How many does he have? I think he needs to condense cut it back to 1/10th and he wouldn't lose anything.

I fortunately started researching narcissism before the Sam Google explosion. There are other excellent sites out there but now they are very hard to find.

He never really goes into how emotional development stopped as a toddler is the key to understanding narcissists. He never really expounds on how rages are really the tantrums of a 18 month old child. He tries to turn it all into techno-babble when in reality, it's very simple. Watch a 18 month old child's very revealing when put in relation to narcissism.

God bless you, Kathy. You really brought it all home for me when I was so lost in a fog.

At 8:03 AM, Blogger Not Available said...

Kathi, it is my fervent prayer (for what it is worth to you, as you come across as most unassuming) that in time you are recognized as one of the leading authorities on not only this disorder, but on taking a compassionate (and WISE) stand against it. I hope to see you lecture on this someday. We could use more powerful voices to dialogue on narcissism and its cost to both the narcissist and his victims.
I have lost so many friends over this; is it OK for my heart to still break (despite my happiness and peace of mind)for the people I know will be just the same in five years while I have been so blessed? I wanted so badly to take my brothers with me...but Kathi I know dozens of narcissists and it's hopeless. The best I can hope to do is raise the bar in my life so I can raise money too, to do something like house and feed them when their inevitable wretched old age comes. Has anyone ever considered what the cost of this will be? You have addressed this, I believe, the "collateral damage". The worthy souls trapped in their childhoods permanently, these talented people HAVE NO SAVINGS, NO HEALTH PLANS, nothing.I know there would be zero gratitude involved but don't care. Am I being naive by still wanting to devote a portion of my heart to helping long-term? I would never subject myself to abuse again, but compassion in action is rare and necessary these days, and I have always thought long-term (which is why I screwed up so badly short term, not understanding the pathology completely at the time...what do you think, Ms. Krajko? IS there room for compassion? They will have no food or shelter, just raging alcoholism and utter decrepitude if no-one thinks long-term.

At 8:06 AM, Blogger Not Available said...

PS you hafta reconsider your qualification that you are "no expert". While I appreciate where it's coming from, yes you are. Peace, GG

At 1:30 PM, Blogger Kathy K said...

Thank you all for your kind comments about this site.

I can understand why Vaknin writes the way he does (or did at least while producing his book). It was a kind of therapy, like journaling. When the narcissistic abuse in my life escalated to unbelievable levels, I sat down and wrote, too. Writing is formal thinking. It forces you to be logical and precise. It brings you out of denial and helps you to sort and figure things out. But, no matter how hard you try to organize it, it comes out rather like Kafka-esque stream-of-consciousness, rambling and wandering in circles. And it's very symbolic. That writing was for ME, not the world, so I don't publish that stuff. (I didn't even keep it.)

As a trained writer who knows the importance of Plain English principles, I know that you have to avoid abstractions, or at least follow every absraction with a concrete example that the reader can VISUALIZE.

I felt that the available material on the web -- both from Vaknin and from the psychiatric researchers (academics are the worst for writing in abstractions!) was going over most people's head. Not that the average person isn't intelligent: it's just that you can't write that way to non-experts and have them understand what the heck you're saying!

That's one of the main reasons I started this site = to put it in plain English so that those who need to can understand what is going on. I don't always succeed in achieving clear communication, either, but my approach is bound to be more effective.

It IS hard to find other good sites on NPD, simply because Googling brings up pages and pages of Vaknin results. How many websites does he have? Billions and billions, I think. That's a narcissist for you: "Don't pay attention to any of them! Look at Me! ME!"

In a way, his huge effort to monopolize the web is funny, because it's proof that he is what he says he is.

But he must be aware of his deep motives, because at the same time he does this, he seems to honestly fight the urge to prevent others from being seen and heard on the web: My site was up for ONE DAY when he posted on it and emailed me to let me know he'd linked to it. Can't complain about that.

He just is what he is. So, you have to take him with a grain of salt and REMEMBER what he is. I would never trust him personally and thereby allow him a chance to abuse me. But that doesn't mean that what he writes about NPD isn't generally beneficial and informative to read. In fact, I think some of the outcry against him isn't just in alarm that some people have become cult worshippers of his, some of this outcry seems nothing more than envy of the attention he gets. Which is narcissistic in itself.

At 2:02 PM, Blogger Kathy K said...


For what it's worth, the Ns I have known who have passed away were all very well cared for to their dying day. Since they never grow up, you can imagine how infantile they become in old age. They know just how to get somebody to wet-nurse them.

Check out the last part of the case study How to Make a Narcissist. You would get nothing more from them than this daughter of a narcissist did.

And check out the account of what an old narcissist did to abuse nurses and hospital staff at What's In There.

You WOULD get abused. And you are not worthless, so your work is not worthless.

For what it's worth, here's my opinion. I can sympathize with the hurt little child hiding deep down inside every narcissist, but not with the demon who ate him or her. The ego. But you make a connection with that child only VERY seldom, as if, for a moment, you have heard a human cry from some dungeon deep down inside. By the time Ns are adults, there's virtually nothing left of them but ego. That's why we can't relate to them -- there's nothing to relate to. Besides, you can't relate to anything that doesn't relate back to you. Like I said, that's just my opinion, based entirely on experience, not as an authority on the subject of NPD.

At 4:29 PM, Blogger Not Available said...

I know all this of course, Kathi. I know it in my heart. I have had to re-think my identity because of the ubiquity of this character disorder in music and the arts in general...and by the way, I would like to offer my sincerest thanks again for one particular thing you wrote that broke my heart with its accuracy (I am paraphrasing of course): "Their addiction to attention is avaricious. Get some in front of them and THEY WILL ATTACK YOU FOR IT."
The accuracy of that observation (which I had never put together for myself) stunned me in its simplicity and the horror...oh, man...NO ONE listened when I would freak out all the time because as an attractive, friendly and talented female I would just SHOW UP at to watch and enjoy myself, and because I was liked and outgoing it was "let the games begin." "Let's see how much attention we can get by attacking HER."...and I was the one left reeling and friendless.
As for them being taken care of by families etc., not these ass-clowns. They are rock musicians without the talent, star power or KINDNESS to make anything of themselves, they just sponge off of whatever bandleader is kind enough to hire them, at which time they drink their meagre pay away while alienating the leader's genuine fan base with their obscene delusions of importance. The one thing that's a Godsend is that most of them know subconsciously they are too sick to procreate, have families, whatever. It's picking cigarette butts off the street time by the time they're 45. I just despisse myself sometimes for hating them so much...while wanting to help all the while because I am SUCH a good girl. They didn't take that away from me, but sometimes to this day I get so confused, and this s### happened YEARS ago.

At 4:22 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

When my N-mother was 97 years old she had to move in to an assisted care facility. The care was excellent and it put my mind at ease. I do not believe I would have survived caring for her myself.

She hated the place because she couldn't control everything. She created havoc and was abusive to the staff.

A care home full of elderly N's sounds like HELL to me.

At 5:49 AM, Anonymous CoolAunt said...

Hi, Kathy.

I discovered your What Makes a Narcissist Tick? site around Jan 2005, if memory serves, I spent at least a day here upon discovering your site, soaking it all up. I'd read much, if not most, of Vaknin's writings at that time, so I was familiar with NPD but only from the view of the one who has the personality disorder. Sure, I found a few other sites with information about NPD, but not like Vaknin's or yours.

In particular, your page on the children of narcissists was like a spring gale blowing through my apartment in January. It is so spot on that I sent the link to your site along with some of the text copied into the body (in case they had troubles finding the page due to the frames), in an e-mail to one of my brothers and one of my sisters. Not much later, one called me and the other popped up in an instant message window, both to tell me that you'd described all three of us. (Unfortunately, it appears that our other brother is N and our youngest sister is still mimicking our N dad.)

Anyway, I wanted to comment in this post to tell you that it has been refreshing to me to read from your site, written from the perspective of one who had to deal with a narcissist, rather than one who is a narcissist. Also, I thought I was the only one who questioned some of Vaknin's writings, not because I don't believe he knows the subject matter, but because he admittedly has the need for narcissist supply and attention.

At Vaknin's message board, of which I'm a member, he has written a description of the women who are targeted by narcissists. Among other "qualities," she should be submissive and not demanding, Neither "submissive" nor "not demanding" describe me. In fact, I'm quite the opposite. What really struck me was how Vaknin stroked his own ego by stating that she should be "inferior to the narcissist." Any whole, emotionally healthy person is, in my opinion, superior to the narcissist. Remember, after we get away or are devalued and discarded (whatever it takes), we'll move on to healthier and happier pursuits. The narcissist, on the other hand, will always be seeking, grooming, trying to attract narcissist supply. Like a jungle animal, always in search of food, the narcissist will never know what it feels like to rest or what it feels like to be at peace with oneself. I don't call that superiority.

Enough rambling from me.

Thank you again!
another Kathy :)

At 11:48 AM, Blogger Kathy K said...


Thank you for your comment. It's important for people thinking of staying with a narcissist "for the sake of the children" to hear from the grown children of narcissists.

And you gave a perfect example of where Vaknin goes off. Remarks like that can be damaging to victims, who are just hearing yet again that something's wrong with THEM, that they are inferior.

That's the narcissist in Vaknin talking. He is no fit judge of others. So, as soon as he says something about OTHERS (Americans in general, for example) you will see falsehood in what he says. And projection.

I have noticed the same kind of error in his remarks about the intelligence of narcissists. He says they are usually very intelligent. No. Some are smart, some are stupid, most are in between. Like everybody else.

There is a huge difference between being intelligent and being an experienced manipulator. If you've been a littler operator since childhood, learning via trial-and-error, of course you're going to be good at it. But that doesn't make you intelligent. Con artists always think the people they deceive are stupid. But that's self flattery, for the people they fool are just innocent and unsuspecting.

At 10:05 PM, Anonymous The Happy Feminist said...

Having just discovered NPD yesterday, I have spent much of the evening reading Vaknin's site. I think your take on him is right on point.

Also: not only has he found a way to get attention, but also a way to make himself unique-- a narcissist who actually is honest and public about his own narcissism. I almost wonder if his writing could be used to get through to other narcissists -- although mine is definitely a lost cause.

At 10:21 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

you're a narcissist!
no, you're a narcissist!
Your beautiful.
I am?
Want to sleep together?

At 12:44 PM, Blogger Kathy K said...

Ah, we have been visited by a narcissist! I was going to delete the previous comment, but why?

See the inhumanity in his contempt for his victim? No conscience. He makes light of his deed by by making light of the victim.

We are deceived by these fiends because we are decent people ourselves and expect others to have the same human heart we do. We don't expect diabolical behavior, and so we trust them when they act like they want to make peace. We think they're serious, not suspecting that they have this creep's attitude:

>you're a narcissist!
no, you're a narcissist!
Your beautiful.
I am?
Want to sleep together?

Nothing came in between those lines that you're leaving out?

Ah, lie, lie, lie to yourself there in ga-ga land.

He regards our decency as our being stupid. And he regards his lying as being smart.

Tell a bigger whopper to make yourself smarter, boy.

This is his way of telling us that that what he does is okay, because us inferior beings deserve it.

He can avoid seeing what he does for what it is by making light of any weighty matter, for a narcissist is a nihilist, a fatalist too.

No human feeling in him whatsoever. A misanthrope, hater of humankind.

What does HE deserve?

At 1:38 AM, Anonymous flawedplan said...

I'm a mental health worker who has corresponded with Sam Vaknin, he's been swell and his writings are sensible scholarship. What more do you need? And why?

What I find interesting is the fascination people labeled with personality disorders generate in the non-labeled. I believe their "otherness" is illusionary at the same time I am aware that reading about personality development can be useful in learning how to deal with eccentric personalities.

I would only emphasize learning as the only ethical reason for studying personality disorders, not to change or certainly not to judge or condemn, but to learn what it means to walk in their shoes, and discover better how to relate individuals we find so maddening.

There's really no other justification that I've ever heard, and I've heard a lot.


At 2:12 PM, Blogger Kathy K said...

This is rich.

(1) Anyone writing under a pseudonym can claim to be a health-care professional. Therefore, there is "no justification" for anyone who writes under a pseudonym claiming to be one.

(2) No one needs any "justification" to learn about anything. Where do you get such an idea? What makes you think you are fit to judge others for the mere act of LEARNING about anything? Since when can acquiring knowledge be a sin?

(3) How does a human being "relate" to someone who doesn't regard themselves as a human being and relates to human beings as a member of an alien species does = as a predator on the human species? How does one relate to someone who relates to them as an object?

You seem to have a deeply flawed notion of what a human relationship is.

(4) Are you sockpuppeting us?

>I would only emphasize learning as the only ethical reason for studying personality disorders, not to change or certainly not to judge or condemn, but to learn what it means to walk in their shoes, and discover better how to relate individuals we find so maddening.<

What is that noise all about? Don't put words in my mouth.

It is dishonest to mischaracterize what others say to make it seem bad. Why do you do this? Because you have no LEGITIMATE argument to make?

Plus you are projecting. You condemn people for condemning the same breath that YOU condemn people for the mere act of learning about narcisists for what you call "unethical" reasons.

Oh, how evil to condemn someone for hurting people because he or she likes hurting people. And how righteous to condemn people for LEARNING anout something for reasons Big-Brother YOU disapproves of. Do you have any idea how ridiculous you are being?

And besides, who was "condemning" anyone? No one but YOU!

To the contrary. Both here and on the Main Site I have several times said that, since we aren't tempted like a narcissist, we can't take credit for not being like them, that morally condemning them is useless. I quote myself in "The Important Stuff": "And the only thing more stupid and useless than morally condemning narcissists for being narcissists is trusting them. Don't tempt them."

Sheesh. Why the projection, self-styled health-care professional?

We don't need to "justify" our interest to you. And it is grandiose of you to think that we do!

The evidence of sockpuppeting keeps piling up here, so I will start monitoring ISPs.

You make it sound like this blog disses Vaknin. To the contrary, I defend him. I recommend his writings. But I showed that his opinions of OTHERS (Americans and the victim) are the opinions of narcissist and therefore cannot be viewed as credible.

I just stated the facts he himself makes no secret of. He posts links to all this information. Which few read and which raise serious questions about his so-called qualifications as a health-care professional.

He's just a narcissist behaving like one.

So, people just need to consider the source and remember that he IS a narcissist. That's his claim to fame. He does much good. He is making amends in the only way a narcissist can. But he IS a narcissist. And people are fools to forget that.

Look what you make of that fair and even-handed evalutation. What you make of it bears no resemblance to the reality.

Instead of countering anything I or others say, you just distort and condemn it.

Like a narcissist would ;-)

So what if one person (whom you calim is you) is the victim of a narcissist and is submissive? That doesn't weigh against the many examples given of victims who aren't submissive. In fact, a narcissistic boss in the workplace specifically targets first the nonsubmissive.

So try a valid argument instead of a bunch of smoke next time.

The victims of narcissists have just as much right to expound on the subject as narcissists do. Indeed, the children and siblings of narcissists are experts in some aspects of this problem too. Without their voices, all we have the narcissist's version -- the version of someone who lives in a fantasy world.

I should think that narcissist themselves can learn much by hearing the other side. Especially since they view us as non-thinking objects. Perhaps it would be good for them to discover what goes on in our heads. Just as it is good for us to learn what goes on in theirs.

Indeed, a narcissist is no more of an expert than the son, daughter, brother, or sister of one, or the spouse of one after many years.

At 4:50 AM, Anonymous flawedplan said...

That's quite a tirade my opinion has unleashed. Anyways. I'm not a sock puppet, and don't post anonymously, a simple click of my handle would have illuminated that in the time it took to type your accusation.

I don't condemn you or anyone for the fascination with the labled, I understand the pain that motivates the fixation and have experienced that pain too.

Having said that I am interested in the dehumanization labels create, the dehumanization is well-represented on this thread. These monsters, these alien beings, etc.

I believe psychiatric diagnoses are the purview of psychiatric professionals and I caution against doing freelance diagnoses as a matter of course. I understand the temptation, I simply disapprove and will always say so.

Evidently this sort of expanded dialogue is not welcome here. I did not know that. I do know that the study and discourse about psychopathology does bring out the dogmatist in most of us. And echo chambers have their place. I leave you to it.

Be well,
Robin Plan

At 9:22 AM, Blogger Kathy K said...

>That's quite a tirade my opinion has unleashed.<

"Tirade"? Why the namecalling? Because you can't answer a single point I made? Oh, naughty of me to completely answer every one your accusations, leaving you no leg to stand on. Someone who defends thmselves from you is guilty of a "tirade" eh? Try making a point instead of throwing up a smokescreen like that. You don't handle facts, reason and logic by just name-calling the defense that blasted everything you said to smithereens a "tirade." Again, just like a narcissist would.

You did not concede or further argue a single point. Your accusations are all baseless, because you just hurl them, without basing them on anything. What happened to your complaint about Vaknin?

Obviously you are avoiding conceding that I am right. Come on, break down and admit it.

Or can't you? Is that why you dodge by changing the subject?

>I'm not a sock puppet, and don't post anonymously, a simple click of my handle would have illuminated that in the time it took to type your accusation.<

Lie again. You were anonymous. That "awkward compulsory page" about yourself is new today and wasn't there yesterday. Moreover, you are still anonymous, because it still doesn't identify you.

And it certainly does not support your claim of being a "mental health care professional." You're just a social worker.

And you describe yourself as quite the opposite of one who TREATS the mentally ill. That link brings up an image of the page, so that this sockpuppet can't pull another fast one by changing it after this response. To enlarge it and make it legible, hover your mouse over the lower right corner till you see a button. Then click it.

Does "growing up a multidisordered, traumatized personality" qualify you to diagnose normal people? Does that qualify you as a "healthcare professional"?

Who's diagnosing here? Again you put words in my mouth and then condemn them. Cute.

Indeed, you are the one diagnosing here. Not me or anyone else. In fact, "a simple click" on my home page would tell you that "no one but a qualified physician can diagnose NPD."

Oh, sorry, by defending myself, am I guilty of doing you a "tirade" again? Then follow your own kind advice at the bottom of that page, because you will not cram your words down my throat by villifying me for daring to answer your false accusations.

So, again, your words are deceitful and bear no resemblance to reality.

Just like a narcissist, you the accuser call the one who defends themselves from from your accusation the "accuser." Is projection a knee-jerk reaction with you?

I don't give a FFATM what you disapprove of. What makes you think I would? Who do you think you are? Well, from your blog it appears that you don't approve of much. Indeed, you state that the purpose of your blog is to tell the whole what you disapprove of. As if we care.

Try making people feel better, not worse. You might feel better too.

>Evidently this sort of expanded dialogue is not welcome here.<

"Expanded dialogue"? THAT'S A GOOD ONE! I guess you have a sense of humor after all.

>I do know that the study and discourse about psychopathology does bring out the dogmatist in most of us.<

You obviously don't know what a dogmatist is. My observations and thoughts on NPD differ markedly from the mainstream and are most notable for their lack of "dogatism," which I replace, and sometimes even reject, with plain old common sense. So, if you have a problem with my words, that's what you have a problem with.

Perhaps you'd better ask yourself whether you've become what you hate -- dogmatic yourself.

>And echo chambers have their place.<

Yes, I note that you warn your visitors that if you don't like what they say, you won't allow their comments. Actually, I am among a minority on the Web who would say you have every right to do that. But it hardly makes you anything but what you accuse me of being -- the operator of an echo chamber.

By the way, your echo chamber will get some traffic from this blog.

You're welcome.

>I leave you to it.<

Thanks, but that's unnecessary because you're oughta here.

At 10:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kathy You ROCK!!!
That was absolutely priceless. Genius.


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