Friday, September 07, 2007

Narcissist Sympathizers II

I am often amazed at the cavalier attitude of some clinicians and bystanders toward malignant narcissism. They seem so concerned about how they SOUND that they have no concern left for what they're saying. Indeed, one wonders if these people ever hear themselves.

They are so busy trying to sound like nice people that they utter utter nonsense. The cruelty of narcissistic abuse is lost on them. It strikes no chord of empathy in them. They hear about it and just mouth-breathe as if to say, "What's so bad about that?"

Obtuseness is invincible. They talk like it's a mere irritation or aggravation. They say we should make nothing of it and not be angry over it. For, the simpletons cannot think morally and therefore must have a list of dos and don'ts as a cheat sheet to distinguish right from wrong.

Fortunately, good therapists would never tell you to repress your feelings. They would tell you that there are times when you have an obligation to get angry, and that failing to is sometimes the morally reprehensible thing to do. Just as failing to fight is sometimes the morally reprehensible thing to do.

But they aren't saying that to SOUND good, so they aren't as loud as the phonies are.

You can read what you need to know about malignant narcissism in the comments here. Those by the children of narcissists.

They are anonymous, so they have no motive to lie, and the stuff they tell that their abusive parent did to them is too bizarre to be made up. It isn't the kind of thing anyone would make up. In fact, it's antithetical to the kind of thing a person would make up. You can see that. It rings true louder than the Liberty Bell.

Read these accounts of narcissistic abuse and weep. Read back through.

I really want people who think that narcissistic abuse is no big deal to do that. And those who think that narcissists are not bad people and will be fine if you just give them a hug, a musical instrument, and a puppy.

These narcissist sympathizers who say that their victims shouldn't abandon the poor narcissist, because that will make poor little him or her so saaaaaaad (to be without a host to parasitize) - people who say that need a lesson that will teach them where to place their misplaced sympathy. Let them be told they are dirt every day in every way by someone close to them for 20 or 30 years. Let them have their reputation, career, and marriage utterly brought to ruin by character assassination. THEN let's see if they still think it's nothing.

Then let's see how well THEY are handling the life they've been dealt.

Thinking it's funny to force your child to do something you warn him in advance you will beat him for? Have you ever heard of anything more perverted and sadistic than that?

I have it from a narcissist herself that mental cruelty is her game.

Rushing your husband's funeral so that one of his children misses it? After you DROVE him to suicide? People who hear that without it twisting their guts have an empathy problem themselves.

Which must be why they are so callous that they just don't see what's so bad about narcissists.

And then the narcissist immediately shacks up with somebody else to give the knife in his or her kids a twist. That one not only appears in the comments here, I know of that happening once myself. In fact every narcissist I have known who lost a mate immediately (as quickly as fleas abandon a dead rat in search of a new host) hopping into bed with somebody else.

That should be a clue about something to clueless narcissist sympathizers. A clue about what other people are to a narcissist.

Driving people to drink? Driving people to suicide? No big deal? I'll wager that many, if not most, people driven to suicide are driven by a malignant narcissist. That's absolute power over someone = the power to make them kill themselves. I know of three narcissists who did this and fortunately succeeded only in driving to drink, and a third who I think did it and did succeed in driving a teenager to suicide.

Not murder? Not WORSE than murder?

Narcissists do this as lightly as you step on a bug. That's what human beings are to them.

And in treating human beings as subhuman beings, they are treating them inhumanly and failing to recognize humanity. Which means they don't know humanity when they see it. If they were human themselves they would recognize and respect the image and likeness of humanity in human beings.

That's what becoming God has done to them. It was a big fall.

If the abundant evidence about psychopaths is any indication, some narcissists come from happy homes. As for those who don't, hey, if they got even with the parent who abused them, that would be natural. But they deify the abusive parent (as soon as they out of his or her clutches) and take it out on the nicest, lovingest, most vulnerable and defenseless prey they can find.

Come on, everybody knows what that means. They are BAD people. I don't care if it's against your political religion's doctrine to admit that. It's true.

Narcissists are known for making the most mild mannered, gentle, patient, kind, and unassuming people livid with anger. They are known for making people who never hate hate them with a passion.

Jeez, do you suppose there could be a reason for this?

This is just common sense. Let the phonies (on the Web and in the clinics) find some new issue to sound holy on and quit making a farce out of this one. Let them find fault to condemn where it is, instead of where it ain't.

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At 3:24 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kathy, for now I just want to thank you for your empathy. It means a lot to me.
This story is still difficult to tell, for I know most people turn your back on you when you tell it.
I found out very early. So I never talked about it anymore. Only twice with friends I trusted not to leave after hearing this.
Now I tell stories and opinions here cause I hope it can help people to recoqnice NPD. That it's very serious bussiness.
I hope to warn them: if it happens to you, get out while you still can. Leave them totally on their own. Detache yourself.
You might end up insane, addicted, or dead. Donn't think you can handle it. You'll never can.
They cann't be saved. It's a complete waste off time and energie you better use for yourself and sound people. You can only save yourself by detaching and remove them out of your live completely.
It took me almost 40 years of abuse to find out at last, after dozens of stories similar to this one. You wonn't believe your ears.
But how much proof does someone need? How much abuse?
I didn't know about NPD so it took me that long.
But here is this site from Kathy and here are the stories. The information and the stories come out now in a lot of places on the net at last.
I sure wished I read them 20 or 30 years ago.

greetings, Gerard

At 1:19 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

So totally dead-on. I hate all conflict and to fight, and yet I have to fight daily with my ex-N because that is how he continues to get his NS from me and because he knows I hate it.

I also hate him and I am not a hateful person.


At 2:31 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Most of the stories here are about dealing with N's in personal relationships, but I have a quandry about a co-worker N, I’ll call “Pat”. Pat is a co-worker in a superior position who has pulled many of the classic NPD things on me (and on others) -- temper tantrums, withholding, undermining one’s self-confidence, rigging situations. Pat is also incredibly charismatic.

I have a choice whether to work with Pat or not. There is work I would like to do, but Pat is in control of it, and of course, wants to stay in complete control. It’s a professional equivalent of “Must I leave him?” – must I not do this work I would like to, in order to avoid work with Pat? (My instinct says don’t work with Pat, period.)

The other (bigger) question is about warning others. Some others who have been pulled in by Pat seem to not seek work with Pat, but not avoid it; some have gone through great trouble (as they are being manipulated) to work with Pat, but no one calls Pat on the manipulation. I have not been “warned” about Pat by anyone. Possibly I have put a name to Pat’s actions that no one else has, or perhaps other co-workers choose not to rock the boat by “outing” Pat. (Pat “plays” those higher on the totem pole just as much as those lower.)

So: do I have a moral obligation to “out” Pat to a superior or HR? Or, in business, or out of professional respect for Pat, is it better to just stop working with Pat and let others choose as their experience shows? Generally, an N’s charisma can be useful in business, but is it “worth” the liability for an employer?

At 2:48 PM, Anonymous gh said...

Sometimes I think only people who've lived through a narcissist can understand it. We read the stories here, and it seems like we are all constantly saying, "Yes! Exactly, that's just the sort of thing my N does/did too." We all get it, recognize it, understand. But the bystanders don't get it. it sounds too bizarre or like we're making a big deal out of nothing. And some things really are small -- but the same small thing over and over again, day in and day out, stops being a small thing and becomes torture. But the bystander still just sees one small thing. They don't get it.

At 3:08 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Try to know who you are dealing with. Read the advice which is given here and on other sites.
You hate him, so you loved him.
The one you love is probebly the child of 3 or 4, the one you deal with is the child of 5 or 6 who learned how to play the game the way he does now on you.
For me it was hard, to see that 3 year old beautifull human-being throught that grown-up person full of contempt, jalousy and anger.
But that's what you have to deal with, with that person.
And if it's an NPD your love wonn't change a thing to it.
Your love will only make things worse.
Wish you strenght and luck.


At 9:39 PM, Blogger Kathy said...

Personally, I wouldn't risk it. If she's an N, she LOOKS like a lot better performer than she is. If she's an N, she's a climber who will say or do ANYTHING to get your job. Nothing but what they want matters. Nothing. I knew one who worked in quality control at a meat-packing plant. She'd fudge faked results, not testing the product more extensively when signs called for it. Think what that means: it never occured to this machine that it matters if people who eat that food get sick! That doesn't matter - all that matters is how much work she can get out of today without anybody knowing it. They haven't the moral sense of a four-year-old.

As for warning others, I've never known that to work out the way it should. Personally I'm convinced that part of the reason is that people know whom to fear, and I'm afraid it ain't you. It's her, the one with assault weapon mouth. People love whom they fear and hate whom they can abuse with impunity.

But when peers get together and compare notes, a narcissist usually soon leaves town. Nobody knows why. It's very mysterious, but the problem is solved.

At 8:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

ive had the same question same concern and now some experience with this subject within my household structure. i understand the feeling of obligation to easily backfires. i think what may be most effective is to remain simple, unemotional and not go on too much. if people sense you are trying to build sides, condemn or even just overly criticize, they might get suspicious of you. people are only ready to hear what applies to their situation or experience. tread lightly but sure up your own stand. if pats going to drive you crazy or consume your thoughts and you CAN opt out- i'd say opt out while the timing is good. otherwise be aware of how much of your brain space pat takes up-we all can know what you know-other people may or may not have the intensity or urgency you feel- even tho we can see the wolf in the woods they may not believe--yet...jt

At 2:47 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

I know it works this way. I can only talk from my own experience and knowledge I know now.
Eveyone has to find his own way in this matters offcourse.
I was a donkey hitting the rock 3 times before I learned my lesson.So I can understand your comment. And I guess it has to be this way; hitting the rock 2 or 3 times.
Facts, expirience and knowledge speak louder than just words. And warning people is just words, you're right.
My intention was just to tell her and others, my opinion that when there is NPD involved you better run and/or defend yourself the right way.
Just try somehow to save people from what I've been through.
I then hope it helps a bit.
But I guess you are right. I better stick to the facts and leave the conclusions to you readers who are involved in this complicated matter.

greetings, Gerard

At 9:28 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

As someone who was driven to a suicide attempt and a survived it and who had to see the shocking utter LACK of any true caring about this from the narcissist I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this post.

One of the things I see that keeps coming up here and there is that these people DO drive others to suicide on PURPOSE and I honestly think it happens more often than we know. It's such a shameful thing and it's not something I EVER EVER thought I would get so low as to actually try but, little did I know there were people actually like this in the world.

I had to endure a lecture today that I watched online by a college prof about NPD. He actually said he felt "sorry" for these people and not one word was said about how destructive they are to others. I thought "boy oh boy, no wonder therapists are so easily fooled by the tactics my N used."

The destruction these people cause needs to be made as high profile as possible. I was so blind about this till it happened to me. And yes sadly no one can understand it till they go through it but surely to god this has to change someday so that more therapist can help US and stop siding with our abusers!!

They are professional liars who can blame victims in every way possible. WHO is teaching about this type of thing at the university level so that ALL those who work in therapy for couples know about it in a fuller sense than they now seem to?

All we can do now is tell our stories to help someone else to better see these people coming BEFORE they are pulled in to the web of lies.

At 11:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

interesting and very true. it has taken me 24 years of marriage, a year and a half dealing with the information on narcissism and experience with a separate person's lying to finally be able to see and say that my N husband IS A LIAR. i fought against that idea so much for so long in general, then more forcefully the last two years...the hard part was- he couldn't be caught in any lie- there was "no evidence" -i tried so many approaches to validation and resorted to denial myself. BUT - when someone IS a very GOOD liar--of course there is no evidence !!! OOOOR_ there wouldn't be the lie = they would be 'caught' right away -- they wouldn't 'get away with' anything. i "protected" his honor to the point where i took it on myself to whisk it(the manipulations and his denials) away. part of the projection machine they can be. it's taking me a very long time to sort through all this stuff ! it is very complicated when you really really start to deal with it.i bet that's why i got so much simple advice in the beginning to just "run away". it has consumed me--but for me i needed the process to take place. jt

At 4:21 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well jt, that is part of their "script" I too wanted to believe in the underlying better nature of the N. They play on that to the HILT. They will tell you of their abusive childhood, of their horrible past relationships and pout like a child while saying "I have been trying so HARD to be a better person!! I really want to do better in my life!"

And you, especially if you have been a "helper" or in a helping profession will feel empathy, guilt, RESPONSIBLE about this since you do care for this person. The fact is that if you help them at all or try to believe in a better nature underneath the behaviors that will be used to control and ultimately used against you.

It's another "tactic" which I sickeningly watched my N use on his new targets. The "mr. pitiful trying so hard ACT" and I know it's run with every new victim. One of my N's ex's said to me "I always thought I could help him, I wanted to help him"

My N had the ability to get that reaction out of everyone he wanted something from. It's an act and the real work of change never happens. They have learned to play up things to get us to believe in them. We fervently believe there is a person of good character underneath the things they are doing and saying. It's a magic trick to get you focused away from what is REALLY going on repeatedly right in front of you.

It does not help that we being normal cannot fathom in our wildest dreams someone not have a shred of empathy. It's an alien concept to us so we feel there MUST be a person who surely doesn't mean all this on purpose underneath there. We are sure of it. To believe otherwise, is too horrible to contemplate especially about anyone we love.

That's the horror. Waking up to find your life in shambles at the hands of someone you have loved who absolutely takes no responsibility for it, and really does not feel a thing one way or the other for your suffering. It's of no consequence what has happened to you and indeed you are no held in contempt for having ceased to function for their endless needs. You are blamed for seeing the truth of what they are.

They will move on to the next person they can get to "help" them. "Believe in" them. They know they've done you too much damage in the end for YOU to keep believing it. They HAVE to morph and find a new victim to feed off of. The new targets will be told what a "jealous" "abusive" or "angry" or "down" person you always were and how they just could not grow and be healthy with someone like you around.

It is nauseating when you really figure out what they are doing. They will count on your ability to believe in the better nature of people in order to exploit you as much as possible. They know what they are doing too.

The most hurtful thing I did in this entire process was to have to fully see and let go of the feeling that I could have ANY faith in my N. I had never had to admit to myself before that someone I loved was VOID of any feeling of empathy or caring for my well being or anyone else's. That's excruciating to face. It's not normal and it's easier for a long time to just believe that under there somewhere is a better person than what you are seeing. There's is nothing in there of the kind. I grieved I think more over this than anything else. In every other relationship I had grieved the loss of love, in this one I grieved that nothing of the kind was EVER there at all!

They are liars, in fact their entire construct of the way they live is a lie. What was REAL to US is all a construct they made up.

At the end of my relationship I was confronting my N about breaking some basic relationship agreements that HE actually had talked to me about and that I thought we had laid down as important ground rules for our relationship. He yelled back at me "NO!! ONLY YOU AGREED!!! ONLY YOU AGREED!"

Ahhh, you see that was true but, only he knew that. Only I agreed but, I had not known it. Only HE knew that it was all a play he was acting in. So in his framework he couldn't break any of our agreements or rules for the relationship because it was his script and he hadn't really "agreed" Every interaction is a lie designed to get something out of you.


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