The Malignance and the Narcissism
Most people find out nothing about narcissists until they get destroyed by one and go searching for answers on the bizarre incident. Before they learn more, their idea of a narcissist is of a person with a sky-high opinion of themselves, period.
They associate narcissism with self-love (which never made sense to me) and with grandiosity, haughtiness, snobbishness, megalomania, thinking you're just IT – God's gift to the world.
But most narcissists don't inhabit an environment in which they can let that all hang out. In fact, most of the narcissists I have known did not come off that way at all. Therefore, you usually won't notice the grandiosity in a casual acquaintance who is a narcissist.
That's because narcissists have subtle ways of sending their subliminal messages through their behavior and treatment of you.
For example, I'd hate to admit how old I was before I realized why my father threw his road rages. Duh! How could I have been so dense for so long? I suddenly realized that he was doing that to make us stop talking to each other in the car and pay attention to him. He couldn't stand our paying attention to each other, so he had to stop us and silence our conversation and make us focus our attention on him (and whatever his yanking the car around was liable to crash us into).
It wasn't till I'd caught on to a few of these tricks that I noticed the common denominator – that these were attention-getting behaviors. Behaviors designed to deny anyone else any available attention.
He wasn't even smart and he had a dozen sneaky ways to routinely get attention without you realizing what he was up to. But he was just being more subtle about it than than the blathering female narcissist who just yaks at you at 90-miles-an-hour for 3 hours without pausing for a breath. We can't help but see that she is a glutton for attention, but he, just as big a glutton for attention, flies beneath our radar.
And you can see why a man devises sneaky tricks to command all available attention and deny you any: being a jabberbox would get a man laughed in most worlds. But a woman can get away with it.
It's the same with narcissists' grandiosity. Most use sneaky, subtle ways to aggrandize themselves.
Therefore, the average person's idea of a narcissist is very misleading.
I am always somewhat puzzled when authorities on the subject and others talk as though that is what bothers people about malignant narcissists.
I suppose that if you're somewhat narcissistic yourself (and I don't mean that in a bad way – I just mean that if your personality is toward that end of the spectrum), you are going to be irritated by a narcissist hogging all attention and denying you any.
But, first, I don't think that most people are like that. And second, I doubt any normal person (narcissistic or not) is bothered that much by the grandiosity. It's silly, pathetic, so how can it make you angry? I bet people with narcissistic tendencies just immediately dislike and avoid malignant narcissists.
I can't say when, but it was at a very young age – probably around the age of 8 or 9 -- that I began to view my father as pathetic. It was like I was the adult, and he was the child: I had to cut him some slack, because he just wasn't strong enough to quit bolstering his ego at our expense. He needed a lower set of standards, poor thing. I viewed his Big Man act as silly folly.
I bet this is generally true – that children catch on to the essentials much sooner than we adults realize.
All I know is that I didn't mind him paying no attention to us. I know it cheated and hurt me in many ways, but his negative attention was so offensive that I was just glad to be left alone by him.
What bothered me was him picking a fight with my mother every single day. That and all the other malignant stuff.
I bet that's generally true too. People who have had to take a narcissist mind the malignance in malignant narcissism, not so much the narcissism.
If you marry a malignant narcissist, and he or she can get others into the sack, your narcissistic spouse WILL be a serial cheater. He must prove that you have no control over him. That you and your marriage mean nothing to him. He fears relationships as ropes that tie him and therefore must betray every bond of good faith.
That's a lot worse than putting up with his grandiosity.
If you work with a narcissist and do a better job than him, he must get you fired and ruin your career so that he is better than you.
That's a lot worse sin than grandiosity.
In fact, Pathological Envy is his middle name. I knew a narcissist once who looked at others with hatred for being well when he was sick. How's that for malignant?
Narcissists will hate you for just being happy, because happiness is something they cannot have. So, they will make you unhappy, as unhappy as they can.
Narcissists will hate you for your virtues, especially the ones that stand out in contrast to their own flaws. And they will have to fix that by spreading vicious calumny about you.
Grandiosity is nothing compared to the malevolence in that.
Just look at that list of things they do so far. All are ways of destroying someone or something. That's the common denominator. That's what malignant narcissists are – destroyers. (Which reminds me of the cry of the Apocalypse to "Destroy the destroyers!")
THAT'S what's important about malignant narcissists. What they do to people is no minor matter.
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Kathy, Your voice is so clear and understandable when you describe the narcissist. Every post I read helps me clarify what was disorienting and finally terrifying to me. Thank you for helping all of us that way. You are so right about never knowing what this was about until it hit me; realized it was N spouse. Even your examples ring so true for me. The N exhibited constant road rage (honking, etc.) during driving, which was very distracting. Also, he was vicious and enraged at me when I took care of him when he was sick. The excuses given made no sense at the time - I think I sensed the putrid envy. The N derailed my dreams too - my happiness was unimportant. I'm afraid to give more examples in case they are recognizable, but I am grateful for the examples shared by your readers. The malignant force is very subtle and powerful, to point that I don't know how to rebuild. I wish many more people knew about this - we all seem to feel like we're crazy, and that no one will believe us at the beginning. Then, we find the others like us, who have been caught by the destroyers. Your word fits them like a glove. "jewel"
Great post, nice to hear some simple common sense on the subject. Destructive is right, and sneaky about it certainly. I do know, however, that some NPD people actually look for and intentionally hang with people who appear narcissistic.
It works like this ....
I can fall into oral defence when I am nervous in public, but this is actually GAD, not narcissism. For years Steve my husband used to take advantage of this. I have also seen him do the same with other people who have a tendency to talk too much or get carried away with themselves, including his mother. Rather than running the other way, in this case he would go bingo I have found my foil, as in the dictionary definition that follows - 2. Anything that serves by contrast to call attention to another thing's good qualities; "pretty girls like plain friends as foils"
Oral defence is actually a wound so an NPD person who uses people who talk too much or are nervous in public to make themselves look good (they won't sit and listen, however, you can be sure that they will be doing something to compete with the talker and try to make them look foolish, even if others are interested) is being very insensitive. I watch my eldest son, who takes after his father, attempt to do this with his little brother often (I don't let him get away with it!) My youngest boy is somewhat nervous in public (but great company and has many friends) If he is nervous when he finally gets the limelight at a party etc., and starts talking about something for a little too long (but has everyone's attention and usually their interest too) his big brother and his friend will say let's go swimming or do any manner of even sneakier things to steal the lime light and make him look foolish including openly mocking him, but of course pretending that it is funny and good natured. If they can make him cry and get embarrassed while they are still just laughing and having fun then they have really got him and will of course pretend that it is his fault for being oversensitive, ie. there is something wrong with him and they are not only perfect but also in a position to judge him defective. Sound familiar?
This is normal for kids and I know that my eldest will grow out of it, but left unchecked it could easily leave my youngest friendless. Just like emotional abusers do, leave those closest to them friendless.
Have pity on the fools who can't help but have too much to say sometimes. It can also be a symptom of the kind of extreme loneliness that someone married to someone with NPD can be experiencing. Steve is much better now and our network of friends is expanding, but I know what it was like to be in that place and it certainly didn't make me immune to being abused.
We were entertaining a psychiatrist recently (who did not know us very well) who laughed in a good natured way saying, "But Kim you seem the narcissist in the family not Steve!" Steve and I looked at each other knowingly. Steve later said to her, "You don't know much about NPD, do you? (-: Kim might be outgoing but she doesn't lie or manipulate people, like I used to." He has come a really long way (-:
Kim Cooper.
What you say makes a lot of sense, Kim. It sounds like you misread. When I spoke of "narcissistic" people avoiding malignant narcissists, I wasn't talking about peole with NPD. I was talking about normal people with personalities toward that end of the spectrum. I think these are the kind I have sometimes seen size up a narcississt almost within 60 seconds and show an almost instant dislike and avoidance. I suppose they sense the competition for attention quicker than the rest of us.
But I agree that malignant narcissits often get along great together! And I can see why you say that a person with NPD will see easy prey in a person who jabbers nervously and self-consciously. But that's a whole different thing than I was talking about.
Which serves as a reminder that you can't judge a book by its cover = judge a narcissists based on superficial aspects of behavior. This is an example of the case in which the reasons for the constant talking are as different as night and day - one indicating narcissism and the other indicating an antithetical thing, GAD.
One easy way to tell the difference. Just try to get that jabberbox narcissist to shut up and let you get in a word edgewise. Just try to get her to stop butting in on you. She won't even pause long enough to let you say that. It will do no good whatesoever, because she stubbornly refuses to let you have any of the attention: it's all hers. In fact, the more you insist that she stop it, the more she'll do it just to show her insolence.
Now do the same with with a person who is talking due to nervousness and self-consciousness. Be careful. Be kind about it, because she will take your request to heart and try to restrain her urge to fill the air.
I give similar examples of this little test in the article on The Chirldren of Narcissits on the main website. The test is always the same: ask that person to stop it (whatever it is). A malignant narcissit will refuse to and do it all the more. Other people are just the opposite.
Hi Kathy,
Here in the UK we have a program called Big Brother. I don't know if you know about it, but briefly, a number of people are put into a house where they live for weeks without any contact with the outside world, being continually filmed. I had not watched the program when it was screened earlier this year, but last night I saw a clip from it. There was a contestant on it being shown in an uncontrolled rage screeming at the top of her voice at another contestant that they needed to go on an anger management course !!!!!!!!
I did some Googling and from what I found, this program must be the longest and most comprehensive televised example of a real life N. in action. The contestant used every trick in the N's operation manual.
However, although most people recognised that her behaviour was abnormal, I could only find a couple of bloggers who recognised the N.P.D.
Sadly, it goes to show how few people know about it.
Hi Kathy,
I forgot to mention re Big Brother that you can get various clips if you put the following:
big brother video clips charley
into Google.
I'm ashamed to say that I think that program is an export. (I could be wrong, but I think our version of Big Brother preceded yours). It was the first in a series of "reality based TV shows."
That is, the first in a series of extremely cheap productions that require no real actors or writers or plots or a changing setting. Great for profits!
My first impression was that the producers were trying to hold a mirror up to us, to show us our real selves, which should have induced some shame for our shape-shifting and shifty, self-serving alliances. But to my shock, all the show did was make light of reprehensible conduct and legitimize it. As in this case, it gives abnormal behavior an air of normalcy. Such people are just a bit snarky or whatever.
You're right. That does to a whole society what happens to the children of narcissists = trains them to view abnormal behavior as normal (and unfaithful behavior as smart).
What more could the psychopaths and malignant narcissists among us ask? This just makes their crazy behavior pass for normal. And we are in trouble when that passes for normal.
Thanks for the heads-up about that episode with that narcissistic rage displayed for us in it.
Big Brother was created in the Netherlands then sold worldwide.
Hi Kathy
Terrific post!
Chiming in about one place where narcissistic men can blather and blather for days and nobody dares to laugh. It's the same place that one lone attention hog can and will completely frustrate and irritate everyone in the vicinity; where it's impossible just to let it roll off their backs, because it's doing damage.
The workplace.
I've been fortunate enough to be able to eject most obvious narcissistic types from my personal life at this point, but there is very little that can be done to eliminate them from a workplace unless you own the joint.
Especially when they have either infiltrated or deceived [or are sleeping with] upper levels of management.
It is extremely frustrating to know that for every meeting I attend, I'm going to have to spend at least three times as long 'off the books' with various people from that group, simply because the narcissist in the main meeting is going to suck up every second of time, and I don't have official or unofficial permisson to shut the jerk up - either subtly or directly.
Trust me, I've tried it, and all I got was backlash. We have an 'elite' where I work, based on degree type, and I ain't in it, and apparently that is far more important than getting the job done or doing it well.
Yes, I'm looking for another place to work, but this nonsense seems to be a permanent feature of the U.S. organizational landscape now.
It's caused me to wonder just how much damage narcissism in the work world has done to our economy.
Because it's all about their ego, they make stupid decisions. I have seen them ruin a business or institution. It's amazing that nobody sees through their hype well enough to how bad a job they doing. They blame everybody but the N. It's a carnival of folly.
I don't know about men not being likely to blather on and on without being laughed at. It probably depends on the expectations in one's particular community.
All my life up til the present day, my N father has blathered on and on and on. He does not let other people get a word in edgewise and he does not tolerate interruption even if he has been talking for more than an hour straight. Of course if someone else does get a chance to talk, he invariably interrupts that person before that person has had a chance to even finish a thought
He also gets upset if you don't
keep eye contact with him while he is talking or if he in any way senses that you are not paying
attention. He doesn't tend to talk about himself so much; rather he lectures you on his pet topics -- history, politics, geneology, etc.
One habit that used to enrage me is that if you did manage to get a chance to express an idea or make a point -- he would completely ignore it, and usually change the subject abruptly.
I have always found his monologues not only self-centered but incredibly demeaning as well. It is another tool for power and control and making others feel small -- I had to tolerate it as a kid but it amazes me how many adults put up with it as well.
it used to almost disgust me how my dad 'tolerated' my mom- i used to think he had too little backbone. there were years i questioned him on 'how to get along with' (how impossible she could get). he would say just let it roll off your back. sometimes that was good advice- sometimes i was right back to questioning his 'honor' in that. i guess after enough time he figured out and maybe accepted ? that there just wasn't a whole lot you could do about it. same thing happening to me in my marriage now. the deal is= some people are just hard to live with. (obvious understatement of the year !) jt
There I must disagree with you JT. They aren't "just hard to live with." If that's all a malignant narcissist were, we wouldn't be here.
A malignant narcissist is hostile to others getting any of the gratification that makes people happy. He's gotta have it all and works to deprive others of what would make them happy. He is hostile to the success of others. He's gotta have it all and works to bring about the downfall of others. He is hostile to the happiness of all including those in his immediate family because he has no human feelings toward anyone. Why would you want to live with someone hostile to you?
That father, brother, sister, or mother will destroy you too. Not just other people in their place of work. Is it right to stay with someone who destroys others? Just because you think he won't destroy you?
Since the only rein on them is what they think they can get away with, someday they may do something terrible just because the circumstances at the time allow them to think they can get away with. The Ns I know know still shock me with what they prove capable of.
One of my regrets is that I didn't walk away from my family the moment I was of age. I then said to myself, "See? It wasn't just other people he would do such wicked things to. Eventually he got around to doing it to you too. You should have stopped treating him as respectable, for all that time you were countenancing what he was just by being the good daughter." It's kinda like Jesus of Nazareth said: "indecent conduct" is a special case. A person like that must be divorced, because you mustn't associate yourself with someone like that in the same household, profiting by what he does to others = essentially being on his side.
It isn't always possible to leave a N, at least not immediately. But I can see no reason why anything short of chains should keep you with one.
Wow. So that's why Dad was always doing that! It's funny how we condition ourselves over time, and explain away a N's actions. "Oh, he's JUST that way..."; "He hates stupid drivers..." etc...
What I hate most about this whole issue, is that when a non-N reacts in a way that an N makes lifestyle- the non-N is accused of being WORSE than the N.
You should get a degree so you can go to court (with people like me) and nail some of these people. Do you know how hard it is to find a psychologist who knows what YOU know? :(
I'm sure you do.
Thank you again for your excellent insight.
Soni
my computer has been acting up I hope you didn't get multiple posts :-()
Kathy
Once again you nail it. "Control by Temper Tantrum" and STBX NH Is GREAT at this. Unfortunately, because I don't let it get to me, our children are learning fast that this is nothing more than a tactic. A childish one at that. My late Nmother did the same.
I know of one N who got caught cating around for 5 years about 12 years into his marriage. Now he trumpets to everyone within striking distance (even on his personal webpage) about how he and the wife "worked it out" and how much he LOVES LOVES LOVES her.
Of course just 4? years ago this same man was saying online how he LOVED this or that hooker or had FALLEN IN LOVE with this or that woman. Maybe he's being a good boy now... but none of us are holding our breath. Sad for for the wife but its not like she hasn't been told!
Keep up the great work & happy new year!
Hold your ground, Barbara :)
I frequent another site which deals with mostly with P's and S's.
One of the main bloggers/psychologist gave an example of a Muslim man who stood by his wife, calling it "love" when she was mistreated by the government for being seen in public with another man (who her husband approved of her being with, I think it was a cousin or other relative).
Anyway, she was beaten and imprisoned for it. The husband made a public statement about his devotion to his wife, even though he could rightfully divorce her- he chose to accept mistreatment for standing by her-because of his, "love for her".
Now, the blogger brought this up as an example of true love and devotion, something a psychopath has no clue about, can not feel and would not be able to carry out.
However, I saw a possibility quite different. I saw it as a possible way for this husband to dig his claws in her even deeper. Now, he has a larger support group for him to continue his control and abuse towards her and by golly, she better be grateful for his willingness to stay with her!
Having been married for 20 years to a religious N, I know first-hand that there are some who use "doing what's right and unpopular" to boost themselves publicly even more while fueling an even stronger grip on their victim. Love and devotion is simply, "approval to do whatever I please to you when they are not around."
I think this man who, so nobly stands by his wife, could very well be using that act as a way to hurt her even more.
Considering that he could very well have set her up by giving her permission to go into public with 'another man'. So, when the inevitable happened, he stands out as a righteous, devoted husband to those who WILL surely make a bigger deal of it than those who might persecute him for it. Why would he do that? one may ask. Well, why not?
It sounds like a lot of romping around just to accomplish something he may have already had a good handle on anyway, you may think.
Well, let me tell you about 20 years of living with a, 'david koresch'- and I will show you that this is EXACTLY how a Narcissist plays his games.
Unfortunately, the blogger refused to publish my view, perhaps because she had already stated that this man was to be esteemed for his "True love and devotion" to his wife and his nobility for risking "persecution" for standing by her. Religious N's LOVE persecution. If they can't get it from others they will inflict it upon themselves by self-torture,starvation, etc...
Obviously, even though the blogger is a psychologist, she does not have a wide enough range of experience with narcissists.
Perhaps because the focus is mainly about Sociopaths?
That is why I love Kathy so much. She truly knows the abilities of a Narcissist, and leaves no stone unturned. Because, like the green sticky sludge found under a pretty pebble, Narcissists can not only coat their target, but ooze their green, nasty filth into the smallest, hairline opening-where we rarely think to look.
You are WISE to keep your eyes open, Barbara.
Thanks, Sonicido! (And for the kind words, too.) That is an excellent example of how cunning they are, clearly explained. (Kinda like the N who is actually plowing IN her ill sister while making a show of plowing her OUT.)
In fact, I knew an unreligious N who loved persecuition. He thrived on it. (Now THERE'S the "martyr complex").
Thank you, Kathy.
Your site has been a tremendous teacher as I am learning how to express myself concerning this issue. Some may think that it is best to just get away from it and ignore what it has done; however, I find it beneficial to continue cleansing the wounds.Besides, with 10 children, I will never really get away from him-so, there is no wisdom in that recommendation for me.
I enjoy helping other people see that they are NOT crazy; they are a target with holes that can be healed. Scarring? yes, perhaps. But NEW holes can be a thing of the past!
I believe making a "message from the mess" as you have done, Kathy- is a very good thing. It is NOT for everyone; but for some, it is necessary.
Thank you for being one of the messengers for us all. :)
P.S. I just purchased from CafePress.com- the paperback: "What Makes Narcissists Tick". My New Year gift to myself.
Thanks Again
Soni
I suppose there are cases of victims who "wallow in it," because victims aren't perfect people themselves. But I don't know of any. And I don't think it's common.
Usually the "put-it-behind-you" preachers are conveniently forgetting that you can't. What the N has done is akin to a drunk driver putting you in a wheel chair. That's the "offense that keeps on offending."
Narcissists do this in many ways, like by destroying reputations and careers. Like by child molestation, as in the case of predatory priests. Like by simple theft of money and inheritances.
Often the victims suffer the damage daily for the rest of their lives. They'd LOVE to "put it behind them." But they can't unless and until justice is done to rerstore what was destroyed or stolen.
Then there is the ongoing threat of that N still able to damage. If, say, she has destroyed one of your careers, why give her a second to destroy? Often even divorce is no escape.
So, though I'm sure there are victims who need to move on, the ones I know are quick to when the day comes that they CAN.
PS, note that the people who say this are focusing the fault-finding searchlight on the wrong party - the victim, not the abuser narcissist.
This is a pattern.
Anything to divert attention from the one who DESERVES to be found fault with and condemned.
Though an individual victim may need this advice now and then, it's often just "blame-the-victim" tactics. It's used to villify calling attention to what narcissists are doing = to cover up for them.
We must be silent, you see. Ns don't want people generally aware of what they are.
Hi Kathy.
Yes! exactly! all of the above, etc...
This is why many religions love Narcissism:
forgive; turn the other cheek; don't judge; love suffers long...
etc...
Believe me, it's all been used against me, and never against the perpetrator.
It justified my staying so long; and justifies those who accuse me of, "turning her life over to Satan" because I finally left.
I don't know of any who wallow in it, either. But I know multitudes who accuse me of wallowing, because I am pursuing the issues in court.
I can't wait to read your book. I'm sure I'll learn better how serve, and how to hit the ball right back in their court!
I know just by being here, I've improved my score. ;)
I have just separated from my NPD husband. I did not even know what NPD was until a few weeks ago I was scouring the internet psychology sites to try to find some answers to just what the heck was wrong in my marriage. I found several sites on NPD and was stunned at how my husband fit the descritions to a "T". He was quite the charmer when we dated, but in hind-site ( always 20-20) he behaved in odd ways. Since he is 10 years younger than me, I rationalized away his lapses into "bad manners" and bought into his excuses of a lonely, sad childhood. He wanted me pregnant before we married and I assumed his rush was the age differance between us. I had a miscarriage 3 months after we wed, and he never even seemed bothered by it...red flag. He drove his car ( still does) like a raging maniac, cursing and cutting people off, as though only his time mattered...red flag.He talks incessantly, often for 30 minutes or more in a monologue without a pause and drops his head back and rolls his eyes into his head if you try to speak at all because "you are interrupting him" ( but he never pauses)...red flag.He goes into a rage at the slightest provocation, throws things around, curses and screams, and often prevented me,by physically blocking me with his body, from leaving the room when he behaved this way...red flag. I found out he has been unfaithful to me multiple times during our "court-ship" but promised, with tears in his eyes, he would never do it again..red flag. He began to show his involvement with race-hate groups...BIG RED FLAG. We started marriage counseling 2 months ago.I found out during counseling that his father beat him and his mother, as he watched, during his childhood. His father still barks at and insults his mother constantly, to the point it is embarassing and painful to wittness. No one in his family does anything about it or even seems to notice it as abnormal behavior. I also found out, my husband has maintained emotional contact with his former lovers, through secret email accounts,and i do believe at this point it has been physical as well, despite his promises of not doing such things, and not admitting it until I found physical evidence of the emails/accounts.I took this abuse for 6 years, believing his stories, hoping he would change, then wondering if I was going crazy. You know what finally woke me up? A dog bite. More specifically, his dog bit me, unprovoked and vicious, bit a hole right through the skin between my toes. My husband wittnessed it and didn't move at all.No emotion, no concern, no reprimanding/controlling his dog.I ran to the bathroom crying as much from the emotional pain of his utter lack of concern for me or my feelings, as from the pain of the bite itself. I sat in that bathroom for 45 minutes crying and thinking. When I came out and confronted him about his coldness, he stated " that's not a bite, if my dog *really* bit you, your foot would be dangling from your ankle". That's when i knew it was over. Can you imagine saying that to anyobne in your life?? Can you imagine even saying that to a stranger?? I realized, at that moment, I was far better off alone, than with this very damaged, dysfunctional person, no matter how "sad" his childhood has been.
HungarianKate:
GOOD FOR YOU! No one should EVER be treated coldly when harmed. EVER.
Thank God you acted NOW. I praise you for drawing that line NOW.
Being the good little "Christian" that I was, I spent many years explaining my ex's cold behavior away; and I took full responsibility for my own reactions when I disliked his attitude.
Once, about 14 years ago, I fell over the dishwasher door that was open. I was huge pregnant with twins. I couldn't get up. As I was trying, my ex ran to the dishwasher door to see if I bent it and left me to roll around trying to get up. One of our children helped me get up.
WHAT THE???
I didn't leave him right then, because I was still held captive by religious commitment.
Thankfully, God intervened, and I got out. The reason I know it was God, is because there are things that happened that were totally supernatural.
Our escape routines are all different, however,
I believe in my own life, that God needed to set me straight about the difference between His love and commandments, and man-made religion. I had them all mixed up, as is common to the majority of those who strive to know Him.
I will spend the rest of my life informing others of my own misunderstandings.
Best wishes :)
Soni
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