Narc Attack: Simple Case of Bad Guy Attacking Good Guy
Did you ever hear the saying "It takes two to Tango"? That's a common saying here in the United States, at least some parts of it. But I'll bet every language has a figure of speech that means the same thing.
It takes two to Tango: That's what you're supposed to say when gossipping about interpersonal problems between two other people. The only interest is in coming to agreement with your gossips on who is to blame for it. Because then you are bestowing judgement on people, and that feels good.
The doctrine firmly to be believed is that, no matter what the bad guy did, the good guy is partly to blame. I think this is construed as (of all things) "fairness" = unfairly (arbitrarily) placing blame on a person without one bit of evidence - just this almost religiously held slogan "It takes two to Tango."
As in the ballroom dance called the Tango.
End of discussion. Case closed. Victim is (at least partly) to blame.
Ah, wisdom!
A word to the "wise" - Yes, it takes two to Tango. And it takes two to have sex. But haven't you ever heard of rape, you empty-headed ventriloquist's dummies!
I hate cliches like It takes two to Tango. Many are as wrong and stupid as that one. Yet people eagerly gobble them up and swallow them hook, line, and sinker.
These stupid platitudes are just SLOGANS. Catchy catch phrases. They SOUND clever. That's all.
Whenever you hear slogans instead of reason and evidence brought forth in VALID arguments, look out. Because intellectually honest people don't have to fake thinking by parroting empty slogans.
Narcs are predators. Predators do not attack in self defense. They attack to eat others. They target easy prey, not anyone they have anything against. The CAUSE of their attack is a vulnerable target of opportunity.
Therefore, the only "blame" you can give the victim is for just being there as a vulnerable target of opportunity. Which is absurd. As someone noted yesterday, it's like blaming a bank teller for getting shot by a robber because she was on the wrong side of the counter. I don't care if that teller is a drug addict, an embezzler, or just plain obnoxious - he or she is wholly innocent in this matter.
The victim doesn't have to be a saint to blameless when it is a PREDATOR that attacks. The victim is wholly blameless, and the narcissist or psychopath is wholly in the wrong.
Of course narcs try to conceal what they really are by claiming that they were striking back at some perceived offense. They don't want you to know that they are predators. That's the Big Chill, man. If people knew that they just attack any defenseless prey caught in their sights, they'd soon find themselves in the Desert of Humankind.
So, of course narcs try to bullshit bystanders and therapists into thinking they were just striking back at some perceived offense. But you have to be a complete idiot to fall for that lie. Duh, just look at who and when they attack.
Then notice how obsequiously they bend over for insult from anyone they fear.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to add that up.
What's more, narcissists are pathological liars you can't trust to tell you the time of day. So it's irrational to believe them about this, especially since there's an obvious potential motive for them to be lying.
Therefore, for this lie to work, it DOES take two to Tango. The believer of the lie is partly to blame, because he or she is being irrational to believe a known pathological liar on a matter in which he has powerful motive to lie. No victim there. Just a liar and a glutton for being lied to.
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But our relationship counsellors are taught it's 50/50. Which works of course, unless they're dealing with that predator.
I think they should be less grandiose in their estimate of their powers of divination.
Nonetheless, when two normal people have relationship problems, experience teaches us that virtually always the blame is shared, at least to some degree. Hence counselors should avoid the temptation to take sides.
As you say, when one party is a predator though, those rules go out the window. You don't have two normal people. You don't even have a normal human relationship.
They should remember their biology. Predation IS a kind of relationship, but not the kind they're trained to deal with, NOT a human relationship. It is the relationship that a wolf has with a lamb or a parasite with its host.
None of their assumptions work in the environment of a predatory relationship.
The N might as well be an alien from another planet, here to eat and experiment on human specimens. That's what he thinks the rest of us are here for - to use.
While their minds form, very little children are like this too. Ns just never grew out of it.
I tried to explain this to the therapist who tried to get me to be responsible for my N's rages that i.e. "well these are his triggers so don't trigger him" Oh, you mean don't breathe the "wrong" way when he deems I should not or else? I was in shock at having it assumed I was responsible for my own abuse based on this Two To Tango premise.
It's NOT 50/50 in an abusive relationship! There is NO balance of power.
Thanks again Kathy, this is another lame assumption people make and apply to the abused that is unjustified and nonsensical.
Yes, great topic again.
My N husband had 2 therapists wrapped around his finger. Each thought he was my husband's only therapist. My husband had them in reserve knowing I (used to) respect authority. The first time I tried to leave my husband, he basically stalked me and forced me into the car and drove around till it was time for the emergency therapist appointment he had made, wherein the therapist took the 'Two to Tango' approach and gave us instructions to, I forget what, until the next appointment. But by the next appointment I had had to go to the DV shelter.
The second time I was about to leave, my husband called the second therapist and said that she wanted to see both of us. This time, I said, 'I am never going to see that therapist with you. That is your therapist and I feel that my participating in your therapy encourages you to be dishonest. I don't care if she says I am as evil as Ted Bundy for leaving you, if I have decided to leave, she will have no influence. I will be interested to see if you ever go to her again.' He never did.
Your post, Kathy, reminds me of that great comment you made about how "There is something built in to each member of a species that prevents them from regarding other members of their species as food. Malignant narcissists are missing that part."
Relationship counselors might just be falling into the trap everybody falls into, too, with these N people. People have a deep-seated urge to believe that the N's false front is a real person. I actually had one guy, a friend of my h's from childhood, come running up to me at a concert and beg me to tell him 'what it was like to be married to the nicest guy in the world. Please, please, I really want to know. I mean, it's heaven, right? It must be sheer heaven. Like, please, I'm serious, give me some details, it must be really different. It makes me wish I were a woman so I'd have a chance to steal him. Please, have pity on me and just tell me a little of what it's like!" People must really want to believe these beings that n's pretend to be, exist. Why? It's very weird. There must be some deep held beliefs that power society, and only we who have spent time with malignant Ns know that one of those beliefs is a holographic illusion.
I'm currently reading a book, authored by a man who's been working the DV Men's Intervention Programme for 15 years (since inception) and he highly does NOT recommend relationship counselling for couples in unbalanced relationships, nor even therapy for the abuser either. The stats show that attending relationship counselling together with a person who has a tendency towards violence can put them over the edge and abuse of the victim can escalate. As Marisol has explained and proven to us.
He recommends the abuser attending a Men's Intervention Programme and only if his behaviour is 100% good for 2 years then should the couple go to seek counselling for any mutual issues they may have.
I told this to my N tonight and he rolled his eyes in impatience. Yes, 2 years, I hope he got that in his thick brain, as he had better not expect anything sooner than that 2 year mark.
HAHAHAHA OH LYNN! Yes, I went through the SAME conversation with my ex N. And I think it's Lundy's book you are talking about "Why Does He Do That?"
N's cannot keep any commitment! They don't DO the hard work because everything they want is what is important and they can manipulate that out of anyone already!
Real therapy is hard work done by an adult. Can a three year old practice self reflection and walk through facing themselves to change?? No, a three year old will be "good" to please the teacher and that's it. If that doesn't work though it usually does they will sob and cry and spill their guts about how they are bullied by you *sniff sniff* but they are not mad at you because that's just how sweet and kind they are...whatever works, and whatever a three year old bully would do is what they do in all situations.
The behave to perform for the maximum benefit. A script is taken out to fit each occasion.
The reason the N finally stayed away from me was because I would NOT move my boundary lines any more. Not another inch. I had only two hard fast rules. Number ONE was he was to get some serious therapy and Number TWO was that I was to see some evidence of REAL commitment to the promises he made me with regard to the relationship.
His DIRE pleading that he really meant it this time, and that he knew I didn't believe him and that he would PROVE It to me....lasted in earnest about two weeks and at the three month mark he said "It's been three months!! I am getting tired of this. You are a BITCH!"
I replied "If I'm such a bitch why were you not in jail years ago? I should've had you put in jail ages before this."
He got all whiny and I swear sounded just like a little kid "Go ahead and try it and see how far you get with someone who is Mentally ILL!!" *sniff sniff* So he'd learned to use THAT now by going to "therapy" Think how cold you have to be when you are willing to even use the lie of mental illness to get your twisted way? Are they mentally ill? Yes, but they are FULLY aware of what they are doing and do not care one wit and will USE ALL information to put into the computer which twists things for their benefit.
It's not "oh I have mental illness what can I do about this?" It's "OH! they think I have a mental illness how can I use this too and what can I get out of it!! JACKPOT!"
He meant he'd make everyone feel sorry for him. Now he'd denied anything was wrong with him before but, he wasn't above using that to "play persecuted" if he needed to USE that.
That's the last thing he said to me.
He had not gone to therapy. He had gone to anger management and used that to control me in bigger and meaner more subtle ways while bragging to the new targets how he really had got so much out of that program and wasn't he a model example of how well it worked for sincere and dedicated people like him!
I was truly a bitch because I had not believed in him and was giving him a hard time during his earnest and difficult efforts. I was "uncooperative in therapy" THANK GOD!
Every single thing is a PLAY to them. All the world is indeed a STAGE. Lundy is the ONLY therapist that I saw SAY that you should constantly check with the PARTNER to see if the abuser is actually being honest. That it is CRUCIAL to never let the abuser "report" ANYTHING without getting confirmation from the abused. This is someone who has worked with these manipulators for YEARS.
The thing is that no narcissist is going to expose themselves to that much scrutiny and honesty for a month, or a week much less two years!
But why would you bother? A true narcissist will end up being assistant director of the program and making you out to be a lying "bitch" no matter what. They are that good at this.
My experience of "therapy" and organizations that were there to "help" was that the abuse escalated more and more, in DIRECT proportion to how much so called "help" he was getting. And I've said it before but, he is now the president over all the volunteers of one of these places!!
OH the injustice and the freakishness of what really goes on with narcissists. They are being USED but whatever. As long as he stays away from me and I've no sympathy for them. They helped him to be able to abuse me even more than he ever had before. Good riddance to the whole mess.
They believed him so much that when I reported his abuse to one such "helping" organization they turned right around and reported word for word all I said to the N and believed HIM and felt sorry for HIM. He was the long suffering, hand wringing, trying so hard, victim who was being persecuted by me while he was trying to do so much hard good work to heal himself and do better.
I had said word for word please, please do not repeat this to him, I am afraid of him, and in danger and they STILL were manipulated into telling him and they STILL believed him DESPITE the fact that I might have been in danger.
This is not a bad organization, it's just that they are so, so good at the "show" and the manipulations. If I had walked in there black and blue the next day he would've been able to convince them I'd done it to myself to ruin him but oh dear he still loved me so he was going to stick it out with me even though I was crazy. All the while sucking up the pity and pats on the back he would get out of it.
By standers suck. And not only that they put us in danger!! Who KNOWS the number of victims who were more abused by their actions and worse??? We have told our story but, many might not have got that chance.
I will tell you this much, I know for a FACT that if I had succeeded in taking my life that his new "helpers" would have stood by my grave and comforted him, seeing this as evidence that all his horrible stories about me were true. And he would've poured out the FAKE tears for attention lapping it all up to the hilt. EVEN though I had reported to them exactly what he did to me, AND even though they knew because he had admitted oh so cleverly that part of what I said was true but, "I know I had an anger problem and I am really working on it. She should not have involved you all. I am sorry it won't happen again."
They had evidence of what he was. Ignored it. Played a part in putting me in further danger and STILL would've believed him no matter WHAT became of me.
So therapy?? Real commitment to getting "better" NO WAY. "NOT EVER!" to quote my ex N about going to therapy right before I was discarded and the mask was off.
"I know you "THINK" I"m a narcissist" he'd say. lol....nice way to let yourself off the hook with that comment. Did you see it? I just got blamed for being a looney again because I was thinking for myself and not thinking what HE needed me to.
He said that while explaining why we would never work out because I "THINK" he's a narcissist. Funny how just a year before that he was so direly interested in learning all he could about NPD and saying "I can't do this without you! I really do want to get better!" all, ALL an act. we wouldn't work out not because he was an abusive monster but, because of what I THINK about him. LOL!!!
In other words "I have fooled everyone else now and since you decide to think that I am a narcissist and they don't feel that way, there is no advantage in that for me unless you can "think" what I want you to think just like they are!" WHEW! Pretzel logic again but, that's exactly the twisted justification he meant by that comment.
What's key in all of this is to notice the DISORDERED thinking in all things. No therapist is going to catch all that when their act is so good. They didn't learn N speak that well if at all. They will "think" themselves off the hook in the most ingenious ways and you MUST believe the construct of it or you are going to be abused and then dumped for daring to not participate in the N's world. After all, the narcissist has got everyone ELSE to THINK what he wants them to so no matter what they are doing to you, you have to play along. And sometimes I wonder if they really believe the things the line up in such a fashion as to justify all they are doing?
They are big babies. Like Kathy has said they are playing pretend like a child does but, they "think" it into being real and by god you'd better do it the way they said or else "NO FAIR!" "You are not playing by the rules I made up!! I will go sniveling to my therapist and just see what you will get then!"
quote: "I know you "THINK" I"m a narcissist" he'd say. lol....nice way to let yourself off the hook with that comment. Did you see it? I just got blamed for being a looney again because I was thinking for myself and not thinking what HE needed me to..
I can relate to this one. Mine attempted to develop a similar loophole statement: "I'm sorry you FEEL that way," he began to say, in a generous and saintly manner, his tone implying that I was a kook for feeling 'that way' (feeling some behavior of his was unacceptable) while also implying that he was so morally evolved that he was even able to feel a Buddha-like compassion for that.
Fortunately, it quickly occurred to me to always reply, "You SHOULD be sorry I'm RIGHT to feel that way," which, after I broken-recorded it a few times, cut off his approach from that angle. (Too bad the tiring N's have infinite other angles to try, making these triumphs short-lived.)
Thank you 1.09PM poster for the heads up. It is the Lundy Bancroft book that arrived on my door step a few days ago. It's slow reading for me and I keep on Post-It noting the pages and underlining relevant passages. There's a lot of yellow tags on it....lol
My N is currently on a Men's Intervention Programme, and yes I do have a female social worker assigned to me. I've had 3 catch-up visits with her and she is also the facilitator for the DV group I've been attending since Feb, '07. She's good and I trust her. She has told me to trust the facilitators of the group, so I do.
N has been going for 2 lots of 4 weeks and has only just begun to speak about his participation in the programme, well, actually, he's only recited 1 indicent to me and he admitted the facilitator focussed on him peeling back the layers of his anger episode he admitted to having during the week and he admitted that he got 'antsty' with the facilitator. I believe, that up to this point he's fooling the facilitators by not giving much input and is playing their game. But I do have a small level of confidence that they've dealt with many men like him, I mean after all, N's aren't really *that* unique, are they, all abusers have common denominators. And that they can see 'past' any false perspective he gives them.
He says, on the whole, he enjoys the group, says he's getting something out of it, and I have no doubts that he is, but I think that 'something' is relatively small. Although his anger episodes are diminishing, and he's talking like a 'normal' partner with me, I've noticed this past week the eye contact and interest in what I am saying is going back to what it was, which was non-existent. Also, Lundy explains that any abuser who is impatient and pushes for acceptance from their partner is not really making the 'real' change. And this is what my N has started to do. He says he feels he wants to kiss me on the cheek when he arrives home but does not know whether to do it. "Where is the feedback?" is his plaintive wail. So I told him that he'll know when to do it, coz I'll do it for him. I told him that when I'm ready for cuddle, or a kiss, or a touch or a hug, I'll give him one first and then he'll know. In the meantime, I said he'll just have to wait and continue to improve.
But according to him, he doesn't seem to have a yardstick on what 'improvement' is. It appears he needs me to explain it to him. Like how hard is it to realise that a 'happy' home environment free of yelling and upsets and impatience is a good thing? The questions he asks tend to blow my mind actually.
I am so very very very wary of him, and reading posts such as yours, where your N became the President (OMG!!!) and that he was 'good' for a year show me to what extent they can attempt to fool us. I'm not being fooled, or at least I hope not. At this stage, I see too many red flags in what he says and asks.
I'm glad I bought Lundy's book, the list of 13 different things you need to hear your abuser say about his redemption is good. So far, as I explained to my N, he's still stuck on number 1.....lol
Thanks for sharing.
"I am so very very very wary of him, and reading posts such as yours, where your N became the President (OMG!!!) and that he was 'good' for a year show me to what extent they can attempt to fool us. I'm not being fooled, or at least I hope not. At this stage, I see too many red flags in what he says and asks."
Oh, not only did he become president but, he's donating items to the local womens' shelter there.
Want to know why? Because when I left him he wanted to know "What are you going to do about any of this?!" It was a threat, and a challenge because he felt he had it all sewn up and I was screwed so nothing I did or said could disrupt his new "set up"
I replied that since the organization, drop in center for the mentally ill, was sometimes affiliated with the local womens shelter that at the VERY LEAST I would call and warn them who and just exactly what he was and what he had done. I told him they would be very familiar with men such as him and that they deserved to be warned and NOT send any women over to the place where the fox was running the hen house. Lesson learned? NEVER tell a narcissist what your plans are to warn others or to defend yourself. Do not discuss it. At all. They take all information and use it to discredit you or for some gain of their own. Most times it's both.
His counter to this was to begin doing things FOR that local shelter and to show off what a wonderful human he is.
At this point I"m staying out. I"m sorry but, they have been told and so were a few other people. They are falling for IT and I am trying to heal so it's terrible but, I can no longer afford to hang myself out on a limb to open myself up to further abuse just to warn others who will turn a blind eye anyway despite how much knowledge they have of such people. My Xn is just that expertly adept at his act.
My only hope is that someone will see what he really is sooner rather than later because I told. I had evidence of his scams too so the fact they have believed his miraculous "change" might not hold for as long as it did with me. I hope no one gets as hurt and damaged as I did but, he's got collaborators of good standing now. I was once one of those. God help me for EVER falling for it.
But, your post struck a cord with me. When I first had Lundy's book, it was so filled with yellow high lighter there was hardly a paragraph in the entire book without it. The X N went to get a copy at the library, said he'd read it.*another "show" to get something else* Agreed with some of it but, right then and there ceased to discuss it, would use tactics to shut me up if I tried to discuss any of those issues. OR just pull the "I"m so BORED" act so that I knew I' would not get any feedback at all anyway. The entire topic of his abuse was dropped. All that came of his looking at this book was that he was now able to use the language in it and other information to better hide what he really is and really does. So I've made the predator that he is more dangerous by enlightening him. I had no idea of that of course. I felt he could heal, do better etc. I still did not know the extent of what I was dealing with.
If I only I could've seen into the future. My own, and just how twisted and abusive things were going to get, I'd have run then. I had no crystal ball, I had no experience with vacant predators like this.
He had followed me once to a forum for verbal abuse victims and pretended to be another woman there and had been sending me messages as *her*. I figured it out and his big excuse was that I had a few tiny facts wrong. He was outraged.
Not one word about the abuse, what I had been through, I had written reams of things. The only thing he mentioned and that was of concern to him was what I got wrong about his actions or IMAGE. He didn't mind being infamous, he just didn't want any tiny fact got wrong. He experienced this as a supreme injustice that took priority over ALL and ANY thing else.
Abusers are like that, bullies are too. They can practically murder someone but, you better not say they stole a chocolate bar on the way there and have the date wrong. They might have stole the chocolate bar but, if it was a different day than the day of the murder THAT Is what they focus on. They are outraged! The INJUSTICE of it ALL! Woe is the poor narcissist!
It never makes sense, unless you know how incapable they really are of empathy about someone else's feelings. They care about THEMSELVES. NOTHING that happens to you holds a candle to what they need or want.
It sounds like the program you are working with is a good one.
In my case my so called N is a sociopath at the very least. And he is SO GOOD at getting what he wants out of people that it's astounding!! I see why they believe him, protect him etc. I did too when I couldn't believe anyone could fake this much, this well. Sadly, though he's got himself in a prime position to impress and use those new people.
It's easier for him now with me out of the picture. Once you see the truth they can't afford you anymore. It's too much work and too easy to fool the new targets. My Xn is the king of creating pity in others and feelings of wanting to help. He's been given more gizmos and gadgets and gifts by total strangers then anyone I ever saw. How does he do this? He oozes sincerity and plays the person trying to climb up from the very bottom of abuse himself.*my skin crawls*
It's all fake but, it serves him well.
He SEEMS so harmless, so unassuming despite his background that people are taken. Literally, taken into the game. Warnings aside, I stood no chance of being believed. The reason is that I'm not that good at playing with people. The truth can't stand up against and oscar winning performance like that. AND they have never seen the mask off.
Thank you for feeling shocked he was made president of that place. It validates my own shock and horror knowing what I know about him. He cried how I was "NEVER PROUD OF!" him when he got the position. And yet there was something in his voice too, he knew that I KNEW it was a disgusting and scary prospect. He knew I knew how he got there, who he stepped on to do it. *me* and what his real intent is.
Proud?? Oh god. He's a user, mind twisting, cold monster in sheeps clothing. Proud he is so adeptly using and getting away with it all again, only on a larger scale this time? He immediately went into uber denial and protesting when I said "You know you shouldn't accept that position at all given what you have done and what we BOTH know you are capable of. You are pretending to be just like those you are working with. You are faking it to get something."
Proud he used things he learned by talking to ME to impress them? He co opted information about MY work to make them think he'd been studying such things? Oh god.
I have resolved, RESOLVED to heal. I HAVE to leave all this even though my very being rebels. I want to go to them nearly every day and try to make them see! But if I am to ever heal from all this abuse I have to focus on me now. All in the world I can do is pray god will watch over people around him, wherever he worms himself into.
It was two years ago that I first found Lundy's book. It was the first eye opener for me....but, I stayed believing as his new targets do now the sincerity of his desire to change. Last June, I tried to take my own life. I am working intensely with a therapist now. I have learned so much about the language my sociopath used, the tactics, the entire mind mess he sat out to create in my life. The damages done are not so over whelming now because I take tackling them in bits and pieces. I have to. Not one area of my life that was once balanced or healthy was left undamaged if not totally destroyed. It wasn't worth it. That's a horrid understatement.
I am ashamed as hell to keep saying my story but, I do it because it's the truth. The truth is the ONLY thing that has made me feel I am coming back into my own life and reality. It might be brutal, it might be ugly but, to me it's a beautiful thing because it's not some mind twisting reality I'm being TOLD to live in anymore. Each day if I face up to it, I am more free of this. Also, I tell what happened to me because I hope maybe someone who is where I was will see themselves in it. That's really the ONLY redeeming thing in such a disgusting action as what I found myself doing. If anyone feels themselves to be with someone this smooth, this relentlessly focused on themselves, please just get out. You cannot stick by that. It will get worse. And when you think it can't get worse than that, it will. There is NO DEPTH too LOW for them to go to! There is no bottom, where they crash and desperately want to do the work to heal, and help you too. NO. Not with N's like mine. It's just not in them. No one is home in their heart.
I do not mean you personally Lynn because I don't know your N or your entire situation. I just mean that everyone should be eyes totally open all the time and get ALL the validation and support you can NOW. And above ALL the most important thing is to trust your gut, no matter what you feel, instead of the N's WORDS or answers or explanations. BELIEVE YOURSELF FIRST.
Their words, their manipulations are dangerous to your health in so many ways. If something doesn't ring true for you in your gut no matter WHAT the N has said or appears to be doing then YOU are right. It's o.k. for you to chose what YOU believe without having to grapple with the N about it. If something feels right to you and for you then it just IS. You do not have to explain yourself to the N about it or second guess yourself.
Keep safe and make that your priority. Not the N's progress. YOUR HEALING and what YOU NEED.
My experience is only mine and I know that.
But the walk down this road with N's never goes anywhere good if there is no real change. I cannot afford to believe them capable of that anymore. I cannot out wit, out warn, out game the N. I cannot "love" what he really is, only an image and god knows anyone's life is worth so much more than that.
I drop the ball. I quit. He's a shark moving through the world. The new victims sadly will have to find out what he is on their own. I tried and that is the best I can do. I owe it to myself to heal and put MY life front and center now. Focusing on what the N got away with keeps me connected. Keeps me stuck.
I want justice, I will never have it. THAT will haunt me forever but, I accept it. I will just have to live with it and do my best to heal from such a thing. It's another one of those truths that it's more than O.K. to face and take hold of. Just LET IT BE THERE. That's o.k. too. All I am required to do is face it and move forward one step at a time. If I am sad, or outraged, or overwhelmed, so be it. Whatever my day brings I accept it.
I don't lie down for any of it though. I keep GOING. It gets easier. At first the steps I took were so tiny and so hellish to try and do but, I resolved to feel whatever it was and just keep right on taking them.
So no matter where this goes for any of you, I hope you will know your own truth in this. Know it's alright and embrace that first. Whatever your N tells you or says that doesn't feel right? Well, it just ISN'T! Believe yourself. Holding on to what is right for YOU no matter what that is. It's hard to do that in the N fog. Start small. You know what you feel, you get validated telling it here and to other N survivors. That feeling of validation is something YOU can give to yourself too! Make the voice of the N smaller in it's importance to you. It's all smoke and mirrors anyway, what does it really matter what they are saying or doing? Learning that what is right for you is the right thing no matter what they are up to, is the key to healing or it was for me.
I'm not there by any means totally free of this experience. In fact, I'm not sure even if that is possible. ALL I know is that it is better now than it was. That going back would mean being destroyed. I have evidence that doing what I am doing is better than what I was doing. Finally! Something that is hopeful. At least a little bit.
There is only ONE way to heal from all this. It's to believe yourself. Validate what you KNOW in your gut. And for those who ARE by standers, reading this, friends, ex friends, family wanting to know what to do? Believe the victim. No matter what.If someone doesn't believe you? Get the puck away from them. You don't have to make yourself an open wound to those who would further harm you by beseeching them to listen. TELL your experience where you will be told "I BELIEVE YOU." It heals.
I believe you all. I back you up one hundred percent no matter what part of this road you are on. I'm nobody to know what is right for you or to judge. I made so many huge mistakes, and I still do. Those thirteen different things you need to hear your abuser say before you can believe them? OH DO stick with those and never waver from that. Lundy is right and that WILL protect you! I'm pulling for you in this. I know just how good they can be at the "act" Just listen to your own truth and you will know what the right thing to do is.
Wow, thank you 2.36pm poster for your information. Although my N has no interest in reading any of my books, you have certainly provided an area that is worth being wary and mindful of. I'll be sure to not let him 'in' on too much of what I'm reading.
I agree that once you've told the unsuspecting people (who should know better) then it's their problem. If you try and tell them over and over again, you'll be the one who will suffer emotionally. YOu've done all you can, now it's time to look after yourself, you've done your best.
You are right on. I am a litigator and one thing that drives me nuts in any dispute is when outside observers (such as jurors) say, "I think the truth lies somewhere in between" -- in between what the two litigants are saying.
Sometimes, the truth DOES lie somewhere in between. But there have been plenty of occasions when one side is INNOCENT and the other side is LYING. And it drives me absolutely batty when people (especially judges and jurors) take it as gospel that it is impossible for one party to be wholly in the wrong.
The same is true in interpersonal disputes. I just hate it when bystanders automatically assume that somehow both sides must be at least partly in the wrong.
You are so welcome Lynn and THANK YOU 1200 p.m. poster! It helps to know there are people who actually believe the victim in this. We've all had so many experiences with narcissists and in some cases sociopaths that it's nearly impossible to get heard on this.
Sometimes in life there IS a victim and a bully and no matter what NO it isn't always the case that there are two contributors in an abusive situation. If one party has most or ALL of the power over the other then there cannot be equal or even somewhat equal contribution to the situation. Add to that, that we are dealing with consummate liars here.
I was with this sociopath for five years and it was well into the first three before I even BEGAN to fully start to accept the extent and depth of the lies and his actions.
Judges, lawyers, therapists and all "helpers" need to become far, far more informed about Cluster B personality disorders and how they affect those closest to these people. The ones closest to them are often if not always the only ones who know how dangerous they are since they put on such a wonderful performance for everyone else. Even Robert Hare cautioned his students how easily they could be charmed and conned by one of these people no matter what their level of education and to always be on their guard.
There IS however one telling thing. No matter what words the narcissist uses, no matter the lovely tone of voice, the tears, the charm, wit etc....look who has lost all their money, whose health is ruined physically and emotionally, whose life was stable BEFORE the narcissist. Who had the unstable past relationships? Talk to the other ex's, and closest family members. The truth is in there. Typically I think most victims were reliable, stable people BEFORE meeting up with one of these predator types. THAT is usually not at all true for the bully in these cases.
The most haunting thing in all of this for me is that no matter how much damage was done there wont' be any justice. He's free to ruin the next persons life and make them out to be the "crazy" "bad" one while appearing to be a earnest person seeking to heal and change. *shudder!*
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